Chuck Beatty
Internet Posts, October 2007


Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: "chuckbeatty77"
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 21:42:08 -0700
Local: Thurs, Oct 11 2007 12:42 am
Subject: "Books, meters, recorded LRH lectures, other audiovisual properties are BIG business." - L. Ron Hubbard

"Books, meters, recorded LRH lectures, other audiovisual properties are BIG business." - L. Ron Hubbard

From "BOOKS ARE ASSETS" policy letter of 9 May 1982

This type of mentality, LRH's views as regards his books and other "properties" which Scientology makes its money off, LRH is blatantly unaware of how badly this reflects back on him and the Scientology movement.

This type of statement by LRH is the reason Scientology cannot escape the public's critical impression that Scientology is greedy, just like the 1991 Time magazine article correctly pointed out.

Had that Time article simply quoted extensively Hubbard's "Finance Series" policy letters, and the Flag Banking Officer Series policies, that would have been adequate to prove Hubbard's lack of judgement in broadcasting the uber-business model.

Another gem proving this Hubbard unrealized bad role model, Hubbard boldly strove to outdo 19th century business, n his 15 April 1982 policy letter titled "THE COUNTING OF GROSS INCOME" he stated:

"Nineteenth century 'business practices' will not do for us." ....

"Why 1400 hours Thursday?

"I instituted this at London Org in the 50s. Friday was too late for their Advisory Council to act on the just ended week's statistics, and get the gears rolling for the new week as the weekend (and foundation org) was right upon them.

"By meeting on Thursday they could put their plans into motion on Friday and get started. 1400 hours was the chosen cutoff period to enable them to meet that evening."

L. Ron Hubbard, 15 April 1982

This type of unnoticed unrealized business superiority mindset for his organization, it's no wonder Scientology cannot escape criticism of its overly greedy business like image. Hubbard considered his administrative "tech" superior to the business world's business tech!

Chuck Beatty

Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: "chuckbeatty77"
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 10:49:57 -0700
Local: Thurs, Oct 11 2007 1:49 pm
Subject: Georgetown residents get their personality tests taken....

October 11, 2007
An afternoon with the Scientologists
Katie Boran

My best friend from high school and three of her friends were in town last weekend, and I was absolutely determined to show them a good time. So I shepherded the four of them onto the Metro and we headed for Dupont, where adventures abound if you're willing to keep an open mind. It was with this attitude that we passed the Church of Scientology, and, luckily, they were offering free personality tests and guided tours. It sounded like a pretty sweet deal. Who doesn't like free things from an organization that's well known for being controversial? We approached the ornate wooden doors and entered without knowing it would be another three hours until we would manage to escape.

Two seconds after crossing the threshold, a man introduced himself to us in a friendly manner. He proceeded to tell us he knew we were coming, because a colleague of his had seen us entering the building. We were being watched and it was too late to make a run for it. I felt uneasy. After all, when people hear the name "Scientology" it's almost always accompanied by a mental picture of a possessed Tom Cruise along with Xenu and his alien pals.

A blonde woman led us downstairs to the basement and gave us packets of 200 true or false questions which would reveal the true nature of our personalities. She then popped in a DVD that showed little kids talking about human rights. For the next half-hour, we sat on plush wicker couches filling in little bubbles while some child on the television tried to convince me that all humans had certain inalienable rights, including the "right to play" and the "right to move."

While the results were processed, I picked up a hefty textbook that I'm assuming covered all the bases of Scientology, from the beliefs and practices to the story of L. Ron Hubbard's life. Its format was pretty similar to that of a 5th grade religion textbook, with pictures of exuberant people holding candles and climbing mountains. Scientologists seem like happy people. There were also illustrated pictures of L. Ron throughout the book: L. Ron riding a horse, L. Ron running through the jungles of Guam. The pictures, along with the massive textbook, lead me to believe that he went all over the world becoming a veritable fountain of wisdom.

Meanwhile, two of my friends got their results back. They weren't too encouraging. Apparently, they needed to work on their "stability," "relationships" and "communication ability." I assumed mine would be similar. When I was called in to "discuss" my results, however, they turned out to be stable, which is surprising, considering I think myself more insane than my friends. Nevertheless, the lady and I ended up having a nice 20-minute conversation about everything from my very impressive results to my relationship status to how Scientologists had some success proselytizing in Iraq. Of course, at the end, she suggested that I look into buying Dianetics (the Bible of Scientology) and made it clear that even though I'm a total winner at life, I could still use Scientology to improve even more. I told her I'd look into it.

Just before we left she asked us to stay a bit longer. My friends and I ended up watching some more riveting DVDs on Dianetics and the evils of psychiatry for about another 45 minutes. Apparently psychiatry is a "pseudo-science" to be abhorred and avoided at all costs because it ruins lives.

My friends and I began to get antsy as we watched the DVDs. The wicker chairs were starting to give us pains in our backs, and the videos were getting increasingly creepy. We excused ourselves and booked it out of there. My friends were pretty sore about the whole experience, but I think that's just because they got test scores that told them they were crazy. I posted my test results on my fridge. The Scientologists think I'm normal, and that's all the vindication I need at the end of the day.

by Katie Boran

[my letter to the editor follows. Chuck Beatty]

I walked into a Scientology center during my summer college break, May 1975. I took the personality test also. I was a late blooming hippie generation young person informed (misinformed) enough to think I was shopping for a new age religious movement that could teach me how to have my very own controlled "out of the body" experiences.

Scientology/Hubbard claims out of the body travel is someday possible if one polishes up ones spiritual abilities and sheds his engrams and sheds his body thetans (dead souls of the victims of the Lord Xenu's galactic scale genocide 75 million years ago), by doing all these Scientology steps on Hubbard's Bridge to Total Freedom, then one should be able to fly out of one's head and be a pure spirit of infinite capability (be one's own God, so to speak)!

27 years later of resigning myself to be a helper/staffer, after almost 3 decades of witnessing the movement's leaders heading for the exits (and some going to jail, like Hubbard's wife), I was forced to conclude that NO ONE in the movement were popping out of their heads and no one possessed the supernatural spiritual powers Hubbard leads his followers to believe are just around the next bend in his Bridge to Total Freedom.

I foolishly was hoping all my years of participation that Scientology was resulting in Scientology truly delivering the supernatural spiritual abilities. What I did witness was people's normal decency and kindness despite Hubbard's dogma. No one gets the supernatural abilities.

I think the corny pretentious label of the subject itself, "Scien t ology " foreshadows ALL that one experiences in Scientology. One is constantly rushed past one's better judgment, with Hubbard's reassurances that the golden days are always ahead. Scientology survives on the placebo effect, and people's hope and human comradery. It's a club of well meaning new age/self-help dupes. People who want to get better, can use almost any self-help vehicle to get "better." After 27 years, I saw a 5 to 1 ratio of people NOT sticking with Scientology compared to those that stay. If Scientology truly has 8 million members, I'd estimate that 40 million people have said "no thanks" to a tiny helping of Hubbard's Scientology. The upper staff ranks are known for escaping year after year. The Church of Scientology's leading spokesman, Mike Rinder, a 30 year plus veteran, just left the movement.

Other luminaries of the Scientology followers leave, year after year. Mike Rinder follows a long line of the PR front people who in the end finally just could not take the ridiculous predicaments of staff life, in Mike's case, the top leader of the Scientology movement, David Miscavige, was being unusually punitive to Mike. Mike said no thanks, and he's out now! It is a trying position for the PR front people of Scientology, I have to admit, for them to defend the indefensible flaws in the Hubbard Scientology system. Scientology suffers currently from a dictatorial power scheme headed by David Miscavige, who relishes in vituperative blasting of the top ranked leaders of the Scientology movement. Around 40 fallen top leaders (including Heber Jentsch, longtime spokesperson and President of the Church of Scientology) of the movement languish, as we speak, in a "voluntary" detention "Hall" at the "secret" headquarters of the Scientology movement in Gilman Hot Springs.

If Scientology calls you to complain of your story, ask them "Where is Mike Rinder? Did Mike Rinder abruptly leave staff?" Mike Rinder could tell a pretty interesting tale of his over 30 years experiences at the top ranks and about the outrageous vengeful behavior of the role model top dog in the Scientology movement, their leader, David Miscavige.

Chuck Beatty
ex lifetime Scientology staffer (1975-2003)
Pittsburgh, USA

Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: "chuckbeatty77"
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 19:20:23 -0700
Local: Mon, Oct 15 2007 10:20 pm
Subject: Re: The RCC has problems, but I will agree that it is not a hate-based anti-religious cult like the one loosely organized by Tory and others here on this group.

On Oct 15, 6:17?am, Jonathon Barbera wrote:

> The RCC has problems, but I will agree that it is not a hate-based
> anti-religious cult like the one loosely organized by Tory and others
> here on this group.

> Roman Catholics might have different beliefs than I do, but I respect
> their right to believe what they want.

> Unfortunately, there are some here on this group who are opposed to
> freedom of religion.

> -- Jonathon


If you have the time, there are loads of interesting talks at the Beyond Belief symposium of 2006, and there is nothing wrong with discussing religious ideas.

My favorite speaker was Sam Harris.

Another favorite lecture I recommend you spend time viewing is Steve Pinker:

I have found that Scientologists shy away from in depth discussion of their religious beliefs in the dead souls infestation situation all human beings are suffering, for one (and they have a code of silence about humankind's soul infestation situation, and also about how the surplus of dead bodiless souls came to be in the first place, which is the ancient space opera leader Xenu committed a massive genocide 75 millions years ago resulting in the huge surplus of souls per bodies, thus the infestation problem that earth people suffer today still from that long ago massive Xenu caused genocide).

I mean, Scientology should just be upfront, and let the chips fall where they will, because in the end, once people get through the codes of silence, learn the Scientology religious beliefs, they then do the same thing that is normal, they decide to stick with Scientology or start getting OUT of Scientology.

Might as well be upfront with people at the start and simply broadcast what Scientologists believe in the first place about the surplus of souls infesting everyone on earth, and that only on OT levels 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 the surplus souls are un-infested (body thetans is the Scientology name for the surplus souls).

Xenu is just the ancient leader who 75 millions years ago committed such a massive genocide he caused the surplus soul infestion that all humans suffer from today. And volcanos on earth were the killing fields of Xenu's massive genocide.

Scientology ought to do their own children level picture books explaining this actually!

I think a more thorough and simpler job could be done compared to the South Park version.

Then also get some people through OT 9 and 10 and demonstrating their superhuman thetan abilities to wide acclaim and good word of mouth!

Scientology has to just be upfront with its beliefs and techniques for improving the spiritual character of humankind.

Engrams and the lower level spiritual processes are one thing.

LRH stresses that it is really the OT levels 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 that are the crowning spiritual achievement stuff and his lifelong greatest spiritual accomplishments.

So, I hope you can help them just be upfront about these upper spiritual endeavors.

All the upper levels (OT levels 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7) are about is ridding humans of their infestations of surplus souls clinging to them unknowingly.

Scientology teaches people they have their burden of thousands of souls infesting them, and then Scientology teaches people how to un- infest themselves using Hubbard's spiritual techniques.

And in the process the Scientologists feel better, etc., and longer range then those Scientologists who are fully un-infested are now ready for OT 9 and 10 and more supernatural activites, hopefully, like someday really becoming free to move out of the body at will, and really become fully causative in the physical universe minus a body.

If Scientolgy just admitted this upfront, and it wasn't up to the ex members to simplify and lay it out simply, then Scientology wouldn't be the adverse effect of having outsiders characterize the spiritual beliefs of Scientologists.


Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: "chuckbeatty77"
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 18:02:38 -0700
Local: Thurs, Oct 11 2007 9:02 pm
Subject: Re: Attention all loyal staff members

> 2) There are ex Sea Org, who are known EVEN amongst the group of
> people above, to be working for OSA Int. I know the following to have
> worked with OSA in trying to soak me and other ex Sea Org members for
> info: Felipe Avilla, Anna Stilo Paddock, Ken Shapiro, Wolfi Frank and
> a couple others I forgot, but I've posted their names before.SterlingTompkins.


I've been given info and must correct what I've said about Sterling Tompkins. Sterling did NOT pump anyone for info which was then relayed to OSA.

It was the other way around, people tried to pump Sterling for info, then it was spread around that Sterling was sharing info that benefited OSA's intell gathering activities.

That's not what happened. So, I stand corrected.

Sterling, is being a normal citizen, NOT trying to "work" for either Scientology nor doing anything to work with any people who are actively opposed to Scientology.

Chuck Beatty

Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: "chuckbeatty77"
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:19:02 -0700
Local: Wed, Oct 10 2007 3:19 pm
Subject: Re: question about the future of $cientology ... what do you think?

On Oct 10, 1:08?pm, SwampMidget wrote:

> It seems to me that it is becoming more and more difficult for
> Scientology to continue w/ the Xenu/DC-8/Volcano/H-bomb story
> considering the wide exposure it has received on the internet and in
> the media. Do you think they will change the L. Rom Hubbard drug
> induced fantasies to something more palitable, or perhaps they've
> already done so?

> Surely Tom Cruise and John Travolta haven't been subjected to this
> story. They may not be at the intellectual level of St Thomas Aquinas
> or St Augustin, but even these mouth breathing, pretty boy, high
> school drop outs have enough reasoning to see through a story like
> that. I'm quite sure that the megalomaniacdwarf known as Miscavage
> would have no problem editing the L. Ron doctrine.

I don't think there is an option to change the beliefs.

The existing parishioners who have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars cannot but accept what they have read and re-read what Hubbard has said of the lost whole track pasts!

The lecture series (public domain lectures) where LRH chats about whole track space opera incidents, those space opera mentionings by LRH are actually sort of treasured nuggets of "knowledge" of what faithful think LRH thought.

The space opera existence of everyone, that is very much a huge possible option for history.

If we are spirits in bodies, then we have lived other lives on other planets in the long ago past.

Endless popular TV shows talk about the possibility of other space civilizations on other planets way out there in the cosmos.

Scientology is dualism in a science fiction space opera platform.

The space opera Xenu initiated galactic scale genocide is really a 20th century science fiction concoction between dualism and space opera and earth history.

The body thetans are all the bodiless souls of dead humanoids from other planets.

I see it as Hubbard's imagination all the way. Mixing the actual earth human genocides to these supposed whole track genocides in long ago space civilizations, and to dualism on steriods.

I didn't know of the extra hitch-hiking souls infesting us all, while I was in Scientology, since the code of silence about the OT levels where the body thetan theology is discussed, all the body thetans talk is severely punished.

But Scientology is clearly a combination of dualism and science fiction space opera history.

When space aliens arrive on earth that will shake up all the various religions, including Scientology.

Until then, the competing religious beliefs with their explanations of the cosmos, can compete due to no one being able to conclusively disprove their claims about it all.

That's why people can be suckers for any cosmological large scale explanation, including the Scientology/Hubbard ideas.

Scientology is just an extreme science fiction form of dualism, and dualism on steroids with all the hitchhiking body thetans who are infesting every man, woman and child on eath, waiting to be released by Scientology/Hubbard's OT level technology, namely OT 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 processess! And the Xenu story is just a supposed space opera character named Xenu who ordered the massive galactic scale genocide that resulted in the excess number of bodiless dead souls, the body thetans, who infest us for lack of individual bodies for them to inhabit!

Chuck Beatty

Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: "chuckbeatty77"
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 22:58:11 -0700
Local: Wed, Oct 17 2007 1:58 am
Subject: Re: LRH will reincarnation in this century as the Anti-Christ

On Oct 16, 5:52?pm, Darrick wrote:

> According to the Seth Material, channeled information from an evil
> being named Seth, a man will arise in the mid 21st century, claiming
> to be the reincarnation of the Apostle Paul. He will attempt to
> overturn the Christian religion. He will die in 2075 A.D. Many
> Christians will consider him to be the Anti-Christ.

> LRH has appeared many times on earth. He was the "serpent" (shaman) in
> the Garden 6,000 years ago. He was Simon Magus, the "false prophet" of
> Revelations. He has appeared in every century, to try to destroy the
> religion of Christ. This is why, in the OT levels, he tells
> Scientologists "there was no Christ" and that Christ was a "false
> memory" implant. In other words, OT are told Christ never existed.

> LRH will appear again, in one final, and more successful, attempt to
> destroy the Christian religion.
> He will be born in the year 2021.
> .snip

Do you believe in the multiple lives stuff, and if so, what happens in the meantime between incarnations? Vacations in heaven or hell?

What's Hubbard up to between his death in Feb 1986 and your 2021 date?

Do you believe that the souls of people are the same as the Scientology/Hubbard beliefs, which are that the souls of people ARE the people, and that the souls (called thetans in Scientology) will return lifetime after lifetime?

And did you know that Hubbard believed there was a great genocide incident of HUGE proportions, 75 million years ago, that occured here on earth, engineered by a long ago space leader named Xenu. Xenu perpertrated a genocide of such galactic proportions, that the bewildered dead souls which were the result of that massive genocide, those surplus souls clustered into groups and affixed themselves to all human beings on earth for all these years of earth's history?

Earth was a dumping ground for these surplus souls.

The voices and confusing thoughts people have, are very often traceable to these clusters of surplus dead souls from that 75 million year ago genocide committed by Xenu.

Today Scientologists believe like Hubbard taught them, that the only way to free themselves of their individual burdens of these clusters of dead souls (called body thetans in Scientology terminology) is by doing the confidential spiritual levels called OT 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7, delivered by the official church of Scientology today.

Scientology is actually pretty simple if put in simple terms.

It's about ultimately freeing human beings of their burdens of traumatic experiences and then once a person has gotten those squared away, then Scientologists are considered "Clear."

Then AFTER being "Clear" then Scientologists have to go up higher on the Scientology Bridge to Total Freedom and rid themselves of all their burdens of these clusters of dead souls affixed to their bodies, and that is done on the confidential top level Scientology steps called OT 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7.

Once Scientologists have rid themselves of all these clusters of dead souls affixed to their bodies, then the Scientologists are ready for Hubbard top of the line spiritual processess which teach them the way to operate as pure spirits, without bodies.

No one in Scientology has yet demonstrated these top spiritual levels, beyond OT 8, yet.

I don't think these spiritual levels are real. I don't even believe in spirits, souls or thetans or body thetans.

I think some proof is needed to show souls exist seperate from bodies, first off.

Anyways, Scientology is mainly about souls and getting what Scientologists believe to be everyone on earth's burden of their thousands of dead clusters of souls un-infested off of everyone's bodies, sort of like super-exorcism, because EVERYONE on earth, per Scientology is unknowingly infested up the ying-yang with their share of these dead souls (body thetans). And only OT levels 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 get rid of those thousands of body thetans (dead souls).

Chuck Beatty

Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: "chuckbeatty77"
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 09:58:50 -0700
Local: Sun, Oct 21 2007 12:58 pm
Subject: Re: Christian Markert, German plant and Chuck Beatty's "source".

On Oct 21, 6:24?am, [email protected] wrote:


All ex Scientologists, and current Scientologists would do themselves a huge favor to plow through the following L. Ron Hubbard writings, and reflect on the problems Hubbard has embedded into the Scientology movement as a result:

Hubbard in church policy warms AGAINST using professional ex Intelligence community (ex CIA, NSA, military intell) people, although Hubbard himself hired such people Hubbard admitted in Ron's Journal 67. And it is well known Hubbard makes it illegal for intelligence agency personnel or their families ever being participants in Scientology spiritual services.

This posting on Christian Markert is actually intelligence community level smearing.

Per Hubbard's policies on Public Relations, where Hubbard delves into covert operations, he says the real pros remain covert all the way through their "operation."

And this Religious Freedom Watch article implies directly that Christian is a German Intelligence operation which they are implying they have exposed!

This level of smearing is something Tom Whittle and the OSA Int staffers and conspiracy minded volunteers who DO have some ex US intelligence community contacts, who are in turn write this smearing that appears on Religious Freedom Watch, it all coming back to Hubbard's huge mistake in making all his above writings about intelligence tactics as options for Scientologists to use!

Scientologist volunteers who help OSA in executing the Hubbard tactics listed in Hubbard's own words above, this all smacks of intelligence community level smearing counter exposure, against the Germans, possibly to put off the German intelligence people who DO have a problem with some of Scientology's extremist and irreligious activities in Germany.

This all just contributes to Scientology's horrendous image, and it traces back to Hubbard's ideas, listed above, which authorizes Scientology staffers of Office of Special Affairts and authorizes Scientologists to do this type of inuendo smearing.

My gut feeling this RFW posting is a swipe at German Intelligence people who debrief ex staffers like Christian Markert.

I think THEREFORE that ANY ex members, SHOULD tell any of their disagreeable experiences in Scientology publicly, and make their histories findable, so that officials who do wish to know what goes on inside the Scientology movement, can KEEP TABS on the movement's activities!

Chuck Beatty

Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: "chuckbeatty77"
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 18:43:06 -0700
Local: Mon, Oct 22 2007 9:43 pm
Subject: Re: All these roads lead to religion hating Germany.... It is a shame that they never learn to tolerate religion.

On Oct 22, 7:01?pm, [email protected] wrote:


Scientology is Hubbard's writings essentially.

All anyone needs to do is read Hubbard, like the Hubbardites plead.

Well, when scholars do read Hubbard, they are appalled into polite silence, there is so much to criticize!! The daunting amount of ideas of Hubbard's that should be taken to task is overwhelming and taking Hubbard to task will be just as tedious as the tomes that Hubbard wrote in his off the beaten track existence, sliding by, unnoticed, for the decades he pursued his small behind the scenes quasi-therapeutic space operaesque UFO religion about humans trauma/ mind problems and later our surplus dead souls infestation problem.

There is no winning strategy for Scientology, since the problem is Hubbard's writings which he in turn disallows them to revise and reform.

I recommend and challenge German scholars to spend a little time, like 5-10 years, and study Hubbard inside out and backwards, just Hubbard's writings, especially the staff writings in the OEC volumes. Get various German Universities funded to study all of Hubbard's damn writings, inside out and backwards!

I'll gladly assist ANY scholars willing to spend the time and turn over every page of Hubbard's public domain writings and discover WHY the group is so continually problem causing for public who continually run into problems and heartbreaks when they get deeply into Scientology.

The administrative bureaucratic system of the Scientology movement, its strategies, are out of step and LRH never realized the faults he embedded into the strategies for the movement.

There are a good number of former WDC members who know the intended Hubbard long range strategies, and the front groups strategies, each "sector" of the Scientology movement have dovetailing strategies.

There are sufficient ex members to help expose in full the whole long range administrative and spiritual goals of the movement, and let the public come to a good conclusion about this movement.

I suggest the Germans study those Green Volumes, and all the L. Ron Hubbard writings that lay out the long range strategies, and for the Germans to interview the former WDC members who are willing to straightforward discuss what they understand was Hubbard's longrange strategies!

The point is Scientology does NOT act like a religion, and people have a gut feeling Scientology is more what it really is, which is a quasi- therapeutic mystical UFO (thousands of space aliens' dead souls are infesting each of us and only Scientology's confidential levels OT 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 can rid earthlings of this massive dead souls infestation) uber business like group with mutliple codes of silence and policies to instead deflect OFF of the no longer confidential spiritual teachings (everyone can look at the South Park episode that in 2 minutes details Hubbard's most serious theological spiritual ideas that all human beings suffer a massive infestion of thousands of dead souls of humanoids killed in a massive genocide that occured on earth 75 million years ago, perpetrated by the famous non acknowledged Scientology character named Lord Xenu).

We are all unknowingly plagued with clusters of dead bodiless souls (Scientology calls them body thetans), which only Scientology supposedly directly addresses, and Scientology does so with the confidential spiritual steps called OT 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7, which per the Scientology code of silence, they cannot discuss nor acknowledge that the levels OT 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 deal with targetting and ridding Scientologists of their infestations of the body thetans (dead souls from the 75 million year ago genocide committed by Lord Xenu in a traumatic massive series of mass murders that took place here on earth).

LRH has set up a lazy business model, since that is what he was forced to do since he didn't start out as a religion, and he lazily didn't really revamp the quasi-therapy center business model sufficiently into a traditional religion model.

It's really all LRH's fault, again.

He should have confronted the fact that the therapy training/auditing center model and collecting fixed donations, is just NOT something that would work.

He was too caught up to realize that 'centers' should have been churches all along, and the "centers" were overstaffed for a church.

The one on one counseling activity of Scientology does NOT lend itself into a traditional religion model!

It lends itself more into the therapy/training center model.

In the late 1970s and early 1980s LRH had misgivings about taking the religion model path.

He contemplated switching to the non religon and for-profit model.

That he didn't go that direction was a MAJOR goof.

Forcing Scientology to take that route, I think IS the way for foreign countries to go!

Hubbard contemplated it!

No reason countries looking and researching Scientology should make the same mistake Hubbard MADE!

You can't have churches with 150 staff in one building, and expect the donations to keep the staff (ministers?) paid minimum wage.

LRH leaned on society, and most other countries DON'T accept the Scientology religion model, it isn't the traditional model.

In freewheeling capitalist and less government rules America, LRH lazily in the 1950s got away with NOT going seriously into the religion route.

Then in the UK, same, all throught the mid 60s, no way was Saint Hill like traditional religion.

Old Saint Hill of 1959-1966 was a large therapy training center with the trainees auditing (counseling) each other, etc.

Since LRH never got his head above these major unhandled problems, he basically left the movement in a mess, and instead foolishly setup the Guardian's Office and now Office of Special Affairs, and the whole mess of LRH stupid intelligence/covert operations/counter smear/legal threats tactics to ad hominem counter attack and through the people who should have been reading and dissecting his ideas and concluding correctly that Scientology CAUSES ITS OWN PROBLEMS!

I mean it is clear to anyone who takes a glance at Scientology that LRH was NOT trying to follow the cultural patterns, and of course LRH being so unwilling to tolerate criticism, he just rammed himself a little niche in America, and the PR work of the church in slipping around getting allies who didn't really have any kind of grip on the overall scene in the movement, the polite tolerant attitude in the US is if the people are behaving, let them do what they want!

Well, the problem again traces to Hubbard.

His policies for the organizations drive the staff to desperate means in pressuring their public (Hubbard didn't call the parishioners parishioners, he called them public) to buy services (LRH didn't say donate for services, he said buy services).

LRH is the one who was WAY out of step in NOT earlier in the 50s just wholesale changing the operation into a church like model, one pastor per congregation, each pastor being a hell of a lot better at really taking on a community of people like traditional pastors do.

The whole volunteer ministers approach, that is again, NOT the traditional minister relationship. Volunteer ministers are way superficial in their ability to interact like traditional ministers, there is just no comparison.

LRH hypes his tech that the Volunteer Ministers uses to such a huge degree, it is like LRH's tech is so powerful, that the Volunteer MInisters needn't have all the other qualities and personalities that traditional ministers have in dealing with a whole congregation of parishioners.

No, the movement I think needs some major rethinking, if it is to survive. But they can't do the thinking, since LRH doesn't allow them that option!

I think the Class 6s and Class 8s are the only one's who should be allowed minister status, and really, I don't see how this whole operation can even continue legitimately in a religion model, if someday some scholars do tackle the subject take it on seriously.

I think the old great field auditors who are capable of acting like a normal religion's pastor, and do Sunday services, do free visiting of members in the congregation, just REDUCE the staff in a "church" to maybe 5 at most.

I remember reading in Bryan Wilson's treatise on Scientology, Bryan praised or found it remarkable that in Scientology a parishioner gets such individual ministerial attention!

Wow! To me, the obvious problem is that Scientology basically is letting EVERYONE who walks in the door, does a few Scientology courses, and does the Volunteer Minister's course, they then have volunteer minister status!

I mean, the point is Scientology wants to be this way, then people in society have an absolute right to compare and criticize this whole damn Scientology setup and challenge it!

After 27 years, and my most productive years was in training church staffers, I look back and the whole system I find very irreligious, and pressuring and in now being exposed to huge number of former members views, there should BE some sruveying of the ex members, legitimate surveys.

Someone's gotta do some serious looking into the Scientology movement, and lay out WHAT is so problamatic about this group!

Hubbard's stubborn ignorance and arrogance led him to create by default and his own non confront and laziness and inability to face nor deal with the criticism that was flung at him, and now the Scientology followers are stuck with this system that is NOT a traditional religion model, and has too many disagreeable aspects which the members are NOT allowed to drop, because Hubbard's laws, his policies leave them NO option to drop his rules and policies.

That's the problem with Scientology.

It's first 50 odd years shows that its current model is a failed "pilot" program.

It needs overhaul.

If I were Scientology, I'd just disband.

If Scientology wants an honorable way out of the mess, they'd just disband.

But they won't, so my next unreal solution is waste some of their billions of dollars funding some scholarly research for a decade on Hubbard's writings, and LET the scholars have their says, no matter what conclusions the scholars come to.

Then get some ideas of how to reform into a traditional religion, or turn into a for profit operation.

One or the other.

Right now their religion model is culturally offensive and they have too many policies that degrade followers.

The Hubbard writings again, that lead to the depopularizing that goes on on the Religious Freedom Watch site belie Hubbard's irreligious mindset for Scientology:

Some countries have no problem smelling foul idea platforms using religion status as protection.

Scientology has slid around the world on the backs of good intentioned people insufficiently informed enough to unstick themselves.

It still relies on the goodness and tolerance of the US to even exist.

When scholars finally take Scientology's/Hubbard's writings to task, and do some goddamn good comparative authoritative work on the frailty of Hubbard's ideas, I think they will find NO easy way around the problems Hubbard left for this movement.

Hubbard didn't allow for reform of his worst ideas, and that is my final conclusion why Scientology is doomed to smear its critics. Hubbard never gave them option to stop slinging mud at those who find fault with Hubbard's system!

Chuck Beatty

Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: "chuckbeatty77"
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 19:20:49 -0700
Local: Mon, Oct 22 2007 10:20 pm
Subject: Re: Approximately 20 outstanding members of the international community referred lately to the as credible source of information. I am one of these 20 individuals. I am however not Jonathan Barberi, another author and outstanding member of the community.

On Oct 22, 6:22?pm, [email protected] wrote:

Hubbard's rules prevent a normal discourse once someone has been labelled a suppressive person.

The crippiling effects of L. Ron Hubbad's rules keep Scientologists from continuing to dialogue, or they are allowed only expertly drilled and composed dialogue. Persons the Scientology movement has officially deemed "suppressvie" to the movement are not to be listened to by faithful Scientologists, because doing so is itself a crime in Scientology.

Talking about Scientology/Hubbard's beliefs about humankind's infestation with clusters of body thetans (dead bodiless souls) which are affixed in the thousands to each of our bodies, and these clusters of dead souls (body thetans) can only be gotten rid of using the spiritual processess called OT 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7, all confidential and not to be discussed in the detail I am discussing them here, is another one of Hubbard's LARGE embedded problems for the Scientology movement. Hubbard made my comments above suppressive acts and forbidden.

The movement members are forced into non communication, and they have codes of slience preventing them even simply describing what one achieves in Scientology.

The Scientologists who complete the spiritual steps of OT 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 rid their bodies of all clusters of body thetans (the dead souls infesting them).

Scientologists who have been so un infested are then able to procede to the higher spiritual steps, OT 9, 10 and beyond, which have not been released yet.

But in basic Scientology writings, Hubbard defines the long off spiritual goals, and one of those ultimate goals is operating free of one's body as the pure single rehabilitated spirit that one truly is, down beneath all of the mental imagery normal people have swirling in their heads, and then per Scientology (but not to be admitted due to Hubbard's code of silence) is the blanketing infestation we each unknowingly suffer of thousands of clusters of dead souls affixed to our bodies. These surplus souls were left bodiless after a massive genocide committed by the ancient 75 million year ago space leader named Xenu, who comitted the genocide of trillions of murders, on earth, 75 million years ago, the killing fields were numerous volcanos on earth.

Scientology is pretty simply. It makes people clear of their individual share of trauma. Then it un infests people of their burden of these unseen souls affixed to each of us.

And in so doing, it prepares Scientologists for the longer range goal of bodiless causative interaction with the universe once one does the still to be released Hubbard spiritual steps OT 9, 10 and so on.

We shall see. No one has demonstrated their super spiritual powers yet!

Not one of these outstanding members will hear from a Scientologist's lips the simple description I gave above.

When some scholars take on Scientology, in the years to come, the future will NOT bode well for Scientology.

All that's been done by scholars so far, is majorly superficial and pinpointed discussions.

There isn't a full scholarly work, besides Roy Wallis' book "The Road to Total Freedom" and he didn't have access to the wide number of materials now available, and the huge number of ex members and ex executives in the movement that are available now for interview!

No, these outstanding members have not yet read the books that scholars have yet to write on Scientology.

Prof Cowen years ago told why in an article, because Scientology bashed whoever finds fault with Scientology.

Hubbard's writings, again, are relevant as to why there has not been the scholarship to fully dissect and take Scientology/Hubbard to full task!

Chuck Beatty
Ex-Sea Org (lifetime staffer, 1975-2003)
Flag Dec 1975-Jun 1983 (TTC, Sup, Word Clearer, D of T, etc.)
Int Base 1983-1984 (Routing Forms Pjt)
Snr HCO Int in the FB in LA 1984-87 Re-Training (Int and LA) 87-88
Int Training Org, LA 88 (Sec Checker Sup)
LRH Tech Research and Comps, CMO Int, (Sept 88-Feb 89)
Int RPF (Feb-Mar 89)
PAC RPF (Mar-May 89)
Int Training Org (May-Sept 89) (Admin Sup)
INCOMM Sep 89-Sept 90 (Routing Forms Pjt)
INCOMM Sept 90-May92 (Computer Room LA & Int)
ASI May 92-Dec95 (Computer Room, In-Training Esto)
Decks Int (Dec 95-Jun 96)
Int RPF (Jun 96-Nov 2000)
PAC RPF (Nov 2000-Mar2003)
Routed out March 29, 2003.
Join XSO and network to old Sea Org friends:
Chuckbeatty77[email protected]/
I live in Pittsburgh, anyone feel free to call

Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: "chuckbeatty77"
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 08:37:13 -0700
Local: Sun, Oct 28 2007 11:37 am
Subject: Re: There are several questions that Chuck Beatty should answer. SCIENTOLOGY'S PERMANENT PROBLEM, created by L. Ron Hubbard

Another serious all time major problem L. Ron Hubbard left the Scientology movement followers to grapple with, is how to deal with discussion of the top level Scientology beliefs.

Hubbard's "Bridge to Total Freedom" is a difficult and long process, in my 27 years in the movement, as a staff member, I only got up to "Clear" and then I fell back all the way to the beginning of the "Bridge" to the level called "Grade 0", where I struggled for years, and never finished the "Grade 0" level.

The listing of "abilities" one receives in Scientology are perplexing, if one thinks about these supposed "abilities."

In order to accomplish and "attest" that I had achieved "Grade 0" abilities, the following are the required "abilities" I had to attest to, and which I ultimately felt I could NOT attest to:

From L. Ron Hubbard's 23 October 1980 technical bulletin, entitled




FLOW 1: Willing for others to communicate to him on any subject. No longer resisting communication from others on unpleasant or unwanted subjects.

FLOW 2: Ability to communicate freely with anyone on any subject. Free from or no longer bothered by communication difficulties. No longer withdrawn or reticent. Likes to outflow.

FLOW 3: Willing for others to communicate freelyto others about anything.

FLOW 0: Willingness to permit oneself to communicate freely about anything.

- L. Ron Hubbard, from the technical bulletin on the abilities gained by the "Lower Grades." 1980.

Scientology policy prevents staff and parishioners from speaking freely and openly in detail, answering all new public's questions regarding the Xenu space leader's massive genocide that occurred 75 million years ago here on earth, which caused the deaths of billions of people from other planets in this sector of the galaxy. The souls of those murdered people have been confined to earth, and the surplus bodiless souls of these people infest all human beings here on earth today, per Hubbard.

This belief by Scientology is denied publicly.

This core belief of humankind's problem, this surplus soul infestation problem which all human beings on earth today suffer, is a core Scientology belief, that official Scientology has NOT been able to discuss, because Hubbard wrote severe penalties for discussing this belief.

In my opinion, in hindsight, I would say that Hubbard's own "Grade 0" ability was lacking, for he has put the official followers of Scientology in an enforced position of NOT being able to freely discuss the core beliefs of the movement.

Scientology believes that only the "Upper Levels" (OT levels 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7), the expensive "upper levels" is where Scientologists learn to converse with their share of surplus souls (called "body thetans" in Scientology terminology).

On OT 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 levels, Scientologists finally rid themselves of their individual shares of these surplus souls that infest their bodies.

Scientologists are precluded by Hubbard's policies from discussing these beliefs in public, and severe penalties befall Scientologists who mention the genocide incident and the surplus soul infestation (humankind's "body thetans" infestation).

Scientology's "Bridge to Total Freedom" is simply about getting humans "up" to realizing they are covered in these surplus souls, and then ridding people of their share of these surplus souls.

Scientologists will speak about how refreshed and changed they are, but they cannot discuss the specifics of the surplus souls they rid themselves of.

This is a LONG TERM problem that L. Ron Hubbard has left the movement with.

Scientologists in good standing with official Scientology are unable to freely discuss the Xenu space leader's genocide on earth, in the volcanos of earth being the killing fields, and Scientologists are not allowed to discuss their soul un-infestation in detail.

This is a permanent problem for Scientology.

Chuck Beatty

Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: "chuckbeatty77"
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:24:31 -0700
Local: Mon, Oct 29 2007 12:24 pm
Subject: "BOOK INCOME" quotes by L. Ron Hubbard. What books are supposed to do, and what Hubbard says about the helpless.

> "We do not permitbookson scientology, and of course we do not want any
> texts on weapons or other objects which could endanger security," said
> Peschers.

> Deutsche Welle,2144,2844043,00.html
> Literature | 27.10.2007 >
A Prison Hosts Germany's Library of the Year

Wise move on their parts although, I do think rather it is also media and scholars' jobs to simply take on Hubbard's uber-voluminous writings to task in reciprocal ad nauseum detail as Hubbard spent in writing all his policies that stick the Scientology movement followers into the Hubbard mold.

I'd say Germany should further research Scientology inside out and backwards and produce a couple of good authoritative books on Scientology beyond all the popular books in German.

I learned that there are major English language books on Scientology which are NOT translated into German right now.

I think some German Universities should fund some budding academics or old timer religious scholar academics and do some 5-10 year studies of Hubbard's full cannon of writings, and really do a number on Scientology from all publicly available writings of Hubbard.

Here's what LRH says as far as what he intends of his books on the Scientology subject:

from 7 April 65 "BOOK INCOME" [in 1965 Hubbard hadn't re initiated the "religion" cloak for Scientology]:

"I have occasionally said that 'book sales bring in the org income.' "

"It does not mean 'the money obtained from selling books will support the organization.' "

"1. Books on Scientology placed in the hands of individuals in the public interest them in Scientology;

"2. Their interest in Scientology causes them to want more Scientology;

"3. Such individuals contact a Scientology organization;

"4. If that organization handles the expressed want intelligently, the book buyer in (1) comes in for service;

"5. In the book buyer in (1) is given good service, he or she wishes to disseminate Scientology;

"6. If the original book buyer can obtain books on Scientology suitable for their friends, the individual buys more books;

"7. If these new possessors of books want service, they contact the Scientology organization; and

"8. If the interest of new book buyers causes them to want more Scientology and, desiring service, they contact the Scientology organization, then the above cycle is repeated with other people."

"9. The original book buyer who was interested in Scientology by a book placed in his hands continues to get more service."

"Now, in step 4 above, wherein the original book buyer buys and is given good service, i.e., processing or training, the organization makes all of its stable income."

[Hubbard's policies, each have some gem candid comment about people and life. Hubbard a little later in this policy writing considers long range "helping" even the "helpless" and people needing institutional help!]

"A book is a test of reach. So we at once knock out those who can't reach at all and thus spare ourselves their troubles until we are big enough to run proper institutions and clinics for them. All the money in the world would not be worth the stall we would get from such an unwieldy "help me-e-e" mob.

" Scientology planning is built to make the able more able, leaving the unable strictly alone for the while. If we do this, we grow. If we, like some foolish persons do, tie around our necks the unable, the helpless, the backward, we won't be able to move high enough fast enough to then afford to help the helpless."

- L. Ron Hubbard, from policy written 7 April 1965, page 75-77, 1991 Green Volume #2.

A sign of Scientology's future success would thus be if Scientology does like legitimate religions do, which is help the helpless and truly needy persons in our culture.

The newly released books are completely out of the price range for widespread disseminating by friends to friends per this above "BOOK INCOME" plan!

Hubbard says:

"Books have to:

"1. Be offered with heavy impact.

"2. Be delivered fast fast fast to give delivery impact; and

"3. Contain material to fit the person's level so that want- Scientology is aroused." . . .

"The cash they bring in from book sales is just about enough to sell more books. It is trivial."

"The cash such persons spend then in the org on service is enough to finance our forward thrust."

- L. Ron Hubbard, 7 April 1965 "BOOK INCOME" policy writing, page 77, 1991 Green Volume 2.

What I noticed in my overall 27 years in the Scientology movement (1975-2003) is that Scientology is NOT even close to offering free clinics for helping the needy and helpless.

Chuck Beatty

Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: "chuckbeatty77"
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 10:03:04 -0700
Local: Mon, Oct 29 2007 1:03 pm
Subject: Re: Mike Rinder: Any News?

On Oct 29, 10:40?am, Hartley Patterson wrote:

> [email protected]:

> > Anyone know what happened to Mike Rinder. His profile is still up as
> > head of OSA.

> Silence. The rumour must have spread around the cult by now (we certainly
> told them at Saturday's picket!) but until DM tells them what to think
> about it, let alone do about it, they are apparently paralysed.

> Perhaps someone should poke the media into asking questions, Anderson
> Cooper on CNN for a start, he's interviewed Rinder several times.

> But then you'd think the total rewrite of a bona fide religion's
> scriptures was worth a mention wouldn't you?

> --
> Hartley Patterson

Mike's been contacted by one major media already, and Mike refused to talk. This was about a month ago he was contacted. I don't know the latest.

Mike was an FB (Flag Bureaux, top management in the 1970s) exec, Chief Officer, who went from the FB to the CMO, in his late 20s, in the late 1970s. Mike's was never like the MOD (Messenger on Duty) type Commodore's Messengers, those messengers who served LRH directly on the Apollo and who held watch when LRH was awake, later on, were more knowledgeable about LRH's day to day life, etc. Mike was more the manager risen to the CMO ranks, and from there a trusted top player who was trusted to do all the high positions he held until the abrupt end of his top ranks career.

Mike was sort of a Johnny come lately CMO Messenger, being in his late 20s when he rose into the CMO ranks. But he was liked and respected and did well overall. LRH in the early 1980s, gave Mike almost a kiss of death disparaging comment though, mentioning that "...Rinder is like a yo-yo on my lines....." which means he was spotty in his performance to LRH over the years, since Rinder had been Chief Officer in the FB on the Apollo, under Kerry Gleason, and LRH had problems with Gleason off and on when Kerry was Commanding Officer of the FB, when the FB (Flag Bureaux) was the top management unit overseeing the whole Class IV org system, etc. And Rinder comparatively as a Messenger complying to LRH's orders in the late 70s early 80s might not have impressed LRH.

Mike rose up to Chief Officer CMO Int (logical move, since Mike had been also Chief Officer in the FB), and then Mike got busted sometime after this LRH comment above around 1983 summer, Mike went to the PAC RPF. Personally, I'd be interested how that LRH comment affixed to Mike was to be used to disparage him in later years by DM, et al.

Mike after the 1983-84 RPF stint was back in CMO Int and alternately over the years held various WDC posts, exec posts in CMO Int, Commanding Officer OSA Int, I think Mike replaced Mike Sutter when Mike Sutter was the Commanding Officer CMO Int, and Mike Rinder held the LRH PPRO Int top position off and on over the years.

I lost track in the late 90s and 2000s, he held some positions directly under DM, being a replacement I guess for when Marty Rathbun and Greg Wilhere bombed out. DM's right hand man job is about the toughest there is to be in, you have to take DM's bullshit all day long.

I think we need a full explanation of Mike's period these last 6 years, when DM was particularly hard on Mike for things, but DM's been insanely dissatisfied with all participants of top management these last 6 - 7 years, and life's been a further degree of unpleasantness compared to any prior period.

I think someone like Mike Rinder is needed to spell out in comparitive terms what life's been like. I imagine he will have to find some outside world grounding first, even look back and reflect on his Scientology experience.

It might be multi years for him to come to grips with it.

He is a major potato, he has been privvy to just about all dirty tricks and crap the Scientology movement has pulled on the church's so called enemies, these last 25 years.

Whichever writer gains MIke Rinder's confidence, will get an unprecedented inside view and accurate view of the Scientology movement's history at the top ranks!

I hope he finds the rationale to go public.

But Mike isn't a Vaughn Young. Vaughn was a college professor or taught college, didn't he, and so Vaughn had an outside world education to fall back on.

Mike was a young 2nd generation Scientologist out of Australia, and my opinion is he'll have some catching up reading to do to find the rationale to speak up about his life in Scientology, if he ever does speak up.

Chuck Beatty

Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: "chuckbeatty77"
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 11:36:16 -0700
Local: Wed, Oct 31 2007 2:36 pm
Subject: Re: Space cootie cult.

All that Scientology is really about is people are lead to believe, not unlike other mystical groups and religions, that we are spirits inhabiting bodies, and Scientology/Hubbard went out on a limb even further and said that earth possesses a huge surplus of bodiless souls, which due to the lack of bodies to inhabit, the souls have clustered into groups that infest all human bodies unbeknownst to the humans. So all humankind today supposedly has a huge infestation for every man woman and child of thousands of these extra bodiless souls clustered in clusters infesting our bodies.

Scientology/Hubbard lead people to realize first they are their own souls. Then on the higher levels of Hubbard's "Bridge to Total Freedom" (on the levels called "OT 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7") Scientologists learn about an incident on earth, a massive genocide, orchestrated by an ancient space character called Xenu, who caused the genocide of billions of humanoids 75 million years ago, the killing fields were about a dozen volcanos on earth, causing billions of surplus bodiless souls that have clustered and affixed themselves over and over to humans' bodies ever since, and Scientology's spiritual processes called OT 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 are the technical steps Scientologists utilize to rid themselves of their individual burdens of these surplus souls infesting their bodies.

That's all. Space cooties are simply bodiless souls of humanoids most likely killed 75 million years ago by Lord Xenu's orchestrated massive genocide that occured here on earth.

Scientology just wants people's burden of surplus souls un-attached, so people can rise to greater spiritual awareness and abilities.

I don't think there's been much improvement nor much impact by the Scientologists who have un-infested themselves of their share of surplus souls.

More it has been the case that Hubbard's troublesome rules regulating all aspects of Scientologists' lives have stirred more controversies and problems.

And Scientology/Hubbard's codes of silence about NOT discussing the "space cooties" (really space cooties are simply the surplus souls of dead humanoids, supposedly), is what causes the endless problem and game that Scientologists are forced to play due to Hubbard's rules forcing them to play the denial game about their beliefs regarding the surplus souls (called "body thetans" in Scientology terminology, and "space cooties" to you).

For sure due to Hubbard's problamatic rules he wrote for the Scientology movement, Scientology as a result of Hubbard's extreme rules fits many characteristics of a cult in the popular negative sense of that word also.

The Hubbard code of silence and severe penalty rules for discussing the Xenu genocide resulting in the huge numbers of clusters of surplus souls, that is one of the permanent unfortunate parts of Scientology that all followers are stuck with.

They can't discuss the surplus souls infestation, nor discuss the details of the Xenu genocide incident, publicly, so it leaves it up to non followers to freely detail the details of the Xenu genocide and the resulting current situation of all humankind infested each man woman and child with these supposed clusters of thousands of "body thetans" (your space cooties or what I call surplus bodiless souls).

This code of silence, once official Scientology surmounts this code of silence, and allow their followers free discussion of the Xenu genocide incident and the surplus souls infestation that is our present supposed predicament, once Scientologists are up to that level of candid discussion, then that would mark a huge improvement for the movement.

Chuck Beatty

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