Chuck Beatty
Internet Posts, Aug 2008


Re: No Amnesty


Posted by TROLL 9 Aug 4, 2008 5:34pm

Just my opinion, but I think that when people like Mike Rinder reappear, or when the likes of Tommy Davis, jump from the sinking ship, that they should not be immediately embraced by us. That also goes for any ex - OSA or long time SO. The magnitude of the suffering they have caused to so many people is hard to grasp.

But if they fess up and go to the authorities and spill ALL they know, that would be a start of some kind of sincerity and decency from them

People who have been thugs and creeps for decades, don't suddenly become nice people because they left their jobs in the cult last month.

I think that they should be left alone - not punished or chastised, but not welcomed at all, until well after they tell all to Police or FBI.

No forgive.

No forget.

My [Chuck Beatty's comment]: 8:06pm aug 4, 2008

Yep, one of the tragedies of being a dupe, is coming to grips with opinion that will follow one all one's life.

I see it daily, when I open up to people, in the course of just telling people who I worked for for 27 years.

Most people hold it against me, think I'm a defect for being duped by the Scientology cult.

That's a sentence that hangs over ones head, of all of us who unfortunately let ourselves be part of the Scientology fraud operation.

I did 27 years for Scientology, mainly training, I trained old GO people, the GO staff at Clearwater, and my 2nd wife worked in the OSA Int's Invest Files, my ex wife was Kirsten Caetano's subordinate.

It's a weird sentence one hangs oneself with, when one gets so involved with Scientology.

There's really no way to put a sane face on what one did in the Scientology operation.

It's advanced dupedom, but each of us could have gotten out sooner, had we been smarter or whatever, and thus not supported the fraud and conning that continues and continues.

You saying your don't forgive, well, that's what I see in most people who meet me, but socially, people forgive, superficially, but having been a Scientology staffer and a lifetime advanced dupe, people generally hold it against you permanently, they look on me as damaged goods.

Just the way it is for many people I notice, who meet me.

That's it's own permanent sentence in life.

But still my goal is encourage current staffers to defect, and spill as much beans as they can about current operations.

I don't think the tanking of the whole operation is gonna happen quickly.

It'll drag out for years, my guess.

And I'll network anonymous people wishing insider info, to any of us ex "damaged goods" ex staffers willing to detail operations, etc, in the cult.

My highlight years was as a training supervisor, I trained staff members, I know their administrative structures, and I encourage and put names on the faces.

Were I in authority in Scientology, I'd essentially tank the whole authoritarian setup, starting with:

1) undeclaring ALL persons EVER declared suppressive person
2) refund unconditionally ALL people asking for ALL their money back, no holding back in the least
3) disband OSA immediately
4) stop all authoritarian policies
5) admit publicly that NO super-people are made, and no super-people have EVER been made by the cult/Hubbard setup in it's
whole 50 years.
6) close down the orgs, all echelons, sell off the assets (including Hubbard's crap stored in the underground vaults, get
scrap value for all his "tech" stored on metal plates, etc.)
7) sell off the buildings
8) figure out a way to return the money to the people bilked for the last 50 plus years, who request it back, and the
remainder pay damages to people and families screwed up, and pay state back taxes where no taxes have been paid due to the
dodge religious scam.

Chuck Beatty

Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: "chuckbeatty77"
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 06:56:53 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Thurs, Aug 14 2008 9:56 am
Subject: Notes from the not fully unbrainwashed ex Sea Org, re others still deep in the setup....Joe Caneen and Hank Gould I think Pac Base Crew[email protected]/2762364632/in/photostream/

or[email protected]/2763156648/

Look like Joe Caneen left, and Hank Gould on the right.

Looks like they are setting up for some upcoming event or a shot for a church video shot, since they are using a Metro (subway) car.

Looks like a video filming prepping setup, as the blue screen is positioned for later eventual use for SFX insertion into whatever it is they are insert as the background for this video/film shot.

Looks to me like Joe and Hank are assisting the Gold Cine Dept to later come and film something here.

I'm not sure what Joe's post is. I think he's PAC Base Crew, like Hank.

Joe did in earlier years, for years and years, he's done massive amounts of things for the LRH tech films all through the years, and the video productions for Gold used at the splashy church events.

I think for the 2000 millennium event, even though Joe was on the RPF, they pulled up one of Joe's earlier concepts, which was a history with interviews of the crew, of LRH's time at La Quinta. Joe scripted and conceived probably one of the most liked video history pieces of LRH's life at La Quinta and Joe's production interviewed a good number of people who were Int Base staff discussing their lives with LRH, which was sort of a highpoint presentation of behind the scenes stuff about LRH, his final years of interaction with Cine crew and the messengers and staff around him. The public liked that video historical piece, above most of the other stuff the church came out with about LRH's life. Too bad that particular work of Joes hasn't made it on the internet though for everyone to see.

Joe's a pretty good guy, and I liked working with him the few times I worked with him. Also I liked working with Hank when Hank was the brooding serious INCOMM Security Chief back in the 80s and 90s. Hank got ousted from INCOMM when the big RTC mission came to find the "plant" in INCOMM in Dec 1994-the first half of 1995. Dan Garvin wrote about that Mission, which was just a drastic overkill mission internal punishment, just way beyond normal, the whole of INCOMM was locked down, people not allowed to leave the rooms they were being interrogated and watched and allowed to 'write up their crimes" in. RTC was looking for a "plant" and within a month or so, they narrowed it down and found the person, who ended up getting 5 years of confinement and interrogations. Hank had failed to suspect and nail the "plant" so not only Hank, but about 95% of INCOMM staff were demoted to other Sea Org organizations, many to the RPF, some to ASHO, etc, and most to the PAC Base Crew org that maintains the buildings there in LA.

Joe also was the receipt point of many of LRH's early tech film despatches, he's a long term Cine person, worked on various earlier versions of the LRH tech films that were later revised.

God, everybody in the Sea Org has a story that goes all over the place into the weirdities of the authoritarian Sea Org lifestyle within the penalty minefield system Hubbard left the Sea Org members stuck within.

Joe to me, is an example of someone creating some good out of Hubbard's overall authoritarian setup.

He's loyal, that's one thing you can say for Joe.

Chuck Beatty
ex Sea Org staffer, 1975-2003

posted on Enturbulation.Org, 26 Aug 2008 Floor by floor details of the 12 story management building for INFO --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Basement: Mimeo files which has over 100 filing cabinets of mimeo history (issues, programs, forms). Uniform Exchange. And computer relay equipment room. Also the Security "control" room, the person at the security TV monitors and alarm buttons and radio control.

Ground floor is the LRH Life Exhibition along Hollywood Blvd. On the Ivar entrance two mail rooms, one for the building, one as a relay mail unit doing the daily "runs" to Gilman Hot Springs (the real headquarters of the movement). The mail handlers for the building are called IEC, and the mail handlers for Gilman Hot Springs are called LEC, pronounced "I" "E" "C" and "L" "E" "C". LEC is more senior to IEC.

Off the ground floor there's a stairway to a loft floor at the back of the LRH exhibition, which are offices for the personnel who maintain the exhibition. And up in the loft was once a small exhibition of the old style Hubbard "E-meters."

2nd floor: Int Training Org Reception (ITO trains staff from Scientology organizations around the world) Port Captain Int Liaison Org (ILO, it's the umbrella "middle management" unit of Scientology). LRH Host. Sea Org History Project - Wally Burgess. 2nd floor has the course rooms for staff admin training from Scientology cult churches around the world. Top cult church executives and hopefuls are sent to ITO for training (average time is 2-3 months to 2 years, sometimes longer). 2nd floor used to have an office called the Charlie Chaplain office (had my 2nd marriage ceremony in that office, lots of OSA staff attended, my 2nd wife was OSA staff at that time, 1992). The Charlie Chaplin office used to be set up so that visiting "wogs" could be given a quick show of it, back when historically keeping the building's historical stuff "the way it was" was important for PR area control. It's no longer set up as an office for display. Angela Bryan and Debbie O'Reilly (wife of the photographer who's an OSA staffer who is standing behind Moxon when Angry Gay Pope was served the restraining order, Neal O'Reilly) are the main admin course supervisors. Al Baker (Al was my boss and mentor and great warm hearted fellow advanced dupe of the movement) was off post for a couple months. In early 2008 there was no FEBC Program training at ITO. (Note: a lot of the nerdy looking clean-cut people who sort of dress in ties and business dress, but NOT in the standard dark blue slacks and powder blue shirts, those younger nerdier people are Scientology staff (Class 5 org or "lower" org) trainees, and the thing to ask them is "Are you an outer org trainee?" or "What org are you from?" The trainees are away from home training here in LA at ITO. I heard they only have 15-20 trainees currently. The Harlem Scientology cult church admin people trained in ITO some might still be "in training" at the ITO to be Harlem Org executives, while the cult fraud therapists (called "auditors") are trained in Clearwater.

3rd floor Staff course rooms where the staff in the whole building are supposed to go for 2 1/2 hours a day and study all the Hubbard doctrine related to their jobs, and also train on the whole repertoire of Hubbard's staff member writings, and also they can study the "tech" for the quack spiritual mental therapy of Scientology as well, a very small percentage do that training also. All staff are supposed to spend 2 1/2 hours daily studying Hubbard's rules and regulations daily (they never get around to reading it all, in my 27 years, I never read all of Hubbardís crap but I read a lot more than most ever do). They read the same writings by Hubbard, over and over and over, sometimes dozens and hundreds of times, one policy they will read hundreds of times in their years on staff, is called "Keeping Scientology Working" which reveals the core of the Hubbard mentality and this Hubbard writing above others is worth a read if you wish to get on the Scientology mental "wavelength." There are usually 4 times slots for the daily staff study periods that staff can choose, or their unit typically goes together during that time slot. If you were present at the beginning of a typical course room study period, there is a "roll call" staff members' names are shouted out one by one, and staff answer "Aye" or "Aye sir" if the staffer is subordinate in rank to the rank of the course supervisor. 3rd floor There is a staff library of Hubbard's full administrative policy doctrinal crap (minus the private voluminous "despatch" advices/orders, which are hidden away in private spaces in a few cabinets belonging to the top executives in the building, and even their stash of private Hubbard despatch writings are dwarfed by the stashes of Hubbard's private advices/orders stashed at Gilman Hot Springs and at Author Services Inc, both locations have extensive stashes of the private final advices/orders written by Hubbard in Hubbard's final final years, boring but important details for those that leak those advices/despatches in the years to come).

3rd floor has several offices set aside as private interviewing rooms where the Staff Cramming Officers interview staff on their administrative goofs, and tailor make short instruction 'cramming orders' of study to remedy the staff members' administrative goofs. This is sort of mild brainwashing, and correction of erring staffers. Hubbard designed a whole intricate exact program titled "cramming". The great old guard critic, Dennis Erlich (he stood up and was sued for posting the Xenu doctrine stuff widely, like Arnie Lerma and Karen Spaink and others), Dennis was the top level Cramming Officer for the Class 12 level Scientology staffers down in Clearwater years ago. Today Cramming Officers in the 12 story middle management building mainly 'cram' Hubbard's managerial and administrative doctrines into the heads of the erring administrative staff using a variety of "new" Hubbard procedures some with alarming titles ("False Data Stripping" "Word Clearing" "Clay Demonstrations" "Crashing Misunderstood Word Finding" "Debug Tech Checklist" "Product Clearing" "Conditions and Exchange by Dynamics" "Trouble Area Questionnaire" "Disagreement Check"). Of these cramming procedures, the most ominous and immediately what I would consider "brainwashing" is Hubbard's "False Data Stripping" procedure. This false data stripping procedure absolutely works over time to sink members into Hubbard's administrative authoritarian mindset.

3rd floor of the building is where these staff sink Hubbard's ideas into their heads.

4th floor: One very frequently visited office is that of the Examinations Officer who has the responsibility to detect staff who "falsify" their training or cramming assignments. Hubbard demands 100% understanding (brainwashing) of his doctrines learned on the courses and cramming assignments. The Examinations Officer does a brief "check" on the emeter to ensure staff have absorbed Hubbard's doctrines 100%, and failing staff are sent to "Cramming" again for fix up and reassignment and procedures to discover why the staff failed to absorb Hubbard's doctrines 100% "as their own" knowledge. The Examinations Officer is the gatekeeper quality control inspector, using the Hubbard emeter to do his gate keeping on 100% duplication (brainwashing) of the Hubbard doctrines.

When staff go to the Examiner they sit in a small booth/office, they hold the emeter cans and get asked 1 or 2 piercing questions to ensure they aren't falsifying their training or cramming assignments, NO CHEATING, no faking. If caught cheating, then back to the "Cramming Officer" back on Floor 3, and get your brainwashing fixed up so you are 100% certain youíve got Hubbard's doctrines 100% in your head, no gaps caused by misunderstood words, and no jammed up thinking caused by "wog" world "false data" that you failed to sweep out of your head. Anything that controverts Hubbard's doctrines is rooted out of your head. The Examinations Officer makes sure you are 100% brainwashed and know Hubbard's stuff just like Hubbard wrote it.

4th floor also has the Internship for apprenticeships, which are a higher level of staff training to get you even MORE expert at being just like Hubbard. And there are the rooms where staff are given the therapy/brainwashing/processing which is called "auditing". Staff would get their interrogations, called security checking, on the 4th floor offices. All decked out with cameras so all your confessions are on video and also the therapist/cult minister (they are called "Staff Auditors") make notes of your confessions and later they write Knowledge Reports summarizing your misdeeds and those summaries go into your "Ethics Folders", I think I had about 10-15 large manila folders or more, of my "Ethics Folders" in my 27 years on staff. A stafferís "Ethics Folder" also contains "Commendations" for good things people can write about you if they were impressed with something you did also.)

5th floor: RTC (Religious Technology Center) Repís Office. This IS the power of the building, they are the go between with Miscavige. Commodore's Messenger Organization International Extension Unit is the group of brat power people who pester and rule over everyone in the building, these brats are immediately subordinate to the RTC Rep in power. They are Hubbard's eyes and ears and messengers, they now do whatever Miscavige says. They're top dogs as far as day to day moment to moment on the ground orders and they relay any of Miscavige's strategic stuff that all the admin units in the building must jump to! Even though they are female and young, you call them "sir". Some are young males also. 5th floor is all the brass of the "middle management" Class 5 org management operations for the building. Asking people if they work on the 5th floor means they likely have something to do with the actual top brass of the place. If you know the lingo, you can sink right into their heads, and really get their attention: "Do you work in ILO?" "Do you work in SMI?" "Are you on FNCC?" "Whoís the Gold Rep these days?" "Whoís CO WISE these days?" "The Chief Off ILO wants to see you in his office right away, bring your compliance reports!" Gail Mortenson was the latest Gold Rep. Eric Jarry was Chief Off ILO. Erica Zombethe was the DCOI ILO.

6th Floor is the canteen, where they can take a snack break, coffee (they had Illy's and Starbucks at the canteen in the complex when I was there up till 2003), pretty cool snacks. All types of the health bars and they are pretty creative with their canteen I found. They have a table or two to sit down at. Used to be able to smoke there, but not sure if they allow that now. Also on the 6th is the special unit that makes sure that anything written and issued is 100% perfectly "standard" per Hubbard's writings. The obsessive arbiter unit inspects all written communication sent out of that management building, all management orders are scrutinized to ensure they are completely in accord with Hubbard's writings. Fleur Thomas heads that special Unit, called AVC. They are the power controlling what all the staff say in official programs and projects and official internal issues. And they monitor management despatch/email traffic to the lower echelon churches. This unit issues hundreds of "Cramming Orders" weekly, usually, and this keeps the brainwashing to follow the Hubbard administrative rules. It's all part of the internal setup that keep them toeing the Hubbard authoritarian setup to the letter. AVC stands for Authorization Verification and Correction unit.

7th floor. Offices for the head of the far flung therapist/quack cult ministers, called "Auditors" those Scientologists out doing their own thing, selling cult quack therapy on their own, are policed and licensed from this Office that tries in vain to get them paying their dues and issuing "Cramming Orders" to keep them in line. This is the IHELP (International Hubbard Ecclesiastical League of Pastors) setup that is never able to do what Hubbard wanted, typically, an undoable operation that tries to lord it over all Hubbard quack cult therapists. On the 7th are the promotion departments, pumping out the promo. Also the addresso and central files. Also WISE World Institute of Scientology Enterprises, the unit to keep the Scientology businessmen brainwashed into paying their dues for using Hubbard's administrative "tech" in their business and consulting (more Hubbard brainwashing) of their clients. ALL of these admin boss units can use the Hubbard "Cramming" procedures to force people to toe the line with Hubbard's authoritarian rules. And they use "ethics" and "justice" procedures, to straighten out (silence/oust/declare suppressive) any erring Scientologist, staff or public, from doing things the Hubbard way.

8th floor. Sorry, if you are not ill from this crap already, this next will cause you to take a puke break. This floor has the "network" bosses, these are the long accumulated layers of policing bureaucracies Hubbard's set up going back for years, these are the powers of yesteryear, today they are old powers institutionalized as 'networks' to do their thing, lord it over their little zones, today, all coordinated ("Right!", never works out that way). There's "Senior Hubbard Communications Office International" (Senior HCO Int for short). Notable is that the Int Justice Chief, the only guy Hubbard allows talk to us SPs, IJC is the big top dog SP referee and IJC is here on the 8th floor. Int Justice Chief (IJC) is so overloaded, there are SO MANY SPs around the world and new ones declared weekly that the Continental Justice Chiefs (CJCs) are in touch with many SPs in the continental regions to lighten IJC's load. The big "IJC Files" with all the ethics summary history of all parishioners in the world, are accessible to the IJC in the course of him having to deal with any of the parishioners from his level on downwards, in the movement. People up at Gilman Hot Springs are NOT under the IJC's thumb. IJC does what the real powers tell him/her to do, IJC is NOT J. Edgar Hoover. IJC is mainly a pencil pusher who is told who to call Committees of Evidence (like a trial for Scientologists who screw up and don't follow the Hubbard brainwashing) and he's told who to declare suppressive person, etc. Senior HCO Int also has other branches doing with personnel, they shove the brainwashing Hubbard HR (Human Resources) policy down everyoneís throats using the same generic "Cramming" orders they enforce and also they use "ethics" to enforce compliance (using "cramming" and "ethics/justice" are generic for ALL superiors on all subordinates, and even subordinates have the option to do the same on superiors if they are willing to risk it). Also on the 8th floor is the Int Finance Office that enforces the lower echelons to do exactly what they are supposed to with the money! They got it rigged to bilk the lower echelons for most of the money, and again, "Cramming" and "ethics" for those that don't do exactly what Hubbard says. This office is way more elaborate, but I will skip it for now. There's also two other "networks" which are the "LRH Communicator International Office" and the "Senior Qualifications International Office" both just MORE of the layering control to enforce adherence to Hubbard's doctrines so NO ONE gets away long with NOT doing what Hubbard said to do.

9th floor. This is the meat and potatoes managers of the regular Scientology cult churches that all the anonymous demonstrate in front of. The 9th floor people tell the orgs around the world what the hell to do! (Using the continental management organizations as vias.) The weekly gathering of the statistics of the Scientology churches, occurs on the 9th floor. The sub unit called "Action Bureau" that sends out the swat teams to go smack around the non-complying and recalcitrant churches around the world, the planning and sending of the "missions" (like Mission Impossible missions) are sent from this Action Bureau office.

The room with all the statistics and reports that the management staff are supposed to keep on top of, thereís a room with all the key important new programs, plans, developments, a generic briefing that all management staff are supposed to keep up on, weekly. The Commanding Office of this sub unit called the Flag Bureaux, the core Class 5 org management group, the boss is Colleen Ravenshall (misspelled, sorry) is CO CB. (Not the same as CO ILO, the CO ILO is a bigger boss over the whole umbrella Int Liaison Org, of which the FB, Flag Bureaux, is a small subunit today; there are decades of confusing fads and evolutions of the management sub units).

10th Floor Office of Special Affairs International where the behind the scenes bad deeds are planned and ordered. I'll have to get a floor layout, I was last on the 10th floor in March 2003, when I signed away all my rights to be writing what I am writing this very second. I believe they have their super secret interrogation rooms for the erring OSA Int staffers here on the 10th floor. The "Invest Files", my 2nd ex wife used to run the "Invest files" (Janet Finley Beatty Parker, when you read this someday, call me, 412-260-1170, Love, Chuck) and she was Kirsten Caetano's immediate subordinate, are on the 10th floor. The files have all the dirt on ALL parishioners in the world, or the dirt is summarized and accessible to the "Invest Files In charge" of this floor.

12th floor Office of Special Affairs Iíll have to get a breakdown of what's what. Receptionist for the visiting lawyers, I think Moxon's got his office on the 12th floor. The OSA "public" conference room where you sign away your rights on video, sometime is done on the 10th floor conference room. The 12th floor conference room is more showy for the got bucks lawyer types Scientology used to try to impress. I think Abelson has his office on the 12th floor, or uses an office. Heber's office, the President of the church of Scientology International is on the 12th floor.

11th floor one corner is the LRH apartment, a bedroom, living room with view out towards the Pacific, it sits on the exact corner of Ivar and Hollywood, nice view. Kitchen, and the "messenger" room for his messengers, bathroom. Sort of a bit small and fake, not really looking like someone's gonna really use it, more like a smallish hotel suite of rooms. The rest of the floor is the opulent RTC offices and big office for David Miscavige, his office away from home, his PR front office, if he wants to impress someone with himself. When I worked at ASI 1992-1995, Miscavige gave us ASI staff a guided tour, office of office of all the RTC offices. More like a dusty opulent unused mix of ostentatious and classless over designed setup. Claustrophobic is how I felt in that RTC wing. Not a friendly, but brittle emotionless space. The elevator foyer of the RTC floor, is science fiction oppressive, huge stainless steel panels like the entrance to a space opera prison facility, and I heard Miscavige jokingly say he used to tell lawyers who commented on the prison feel for that foyer, Miscavige said that was the intention, so the lawyers donít screw up, or else they will be facing just that, prison! Sheesh! The motif of Scientology's leader's choice, is science fiction high tech prison foyer!

The oft used phrase when telling the insider actual details about the movement, 'you canít make this stuff up" absolutely applies when you walk inside and look and question the staff of what they are doing.

It's all in Hubbard's own writing, his whole setup will go on, unfortunately, on auto-pilot, no matter what leaders go through their personal leadership and behavioral ups and downs, over the decades.

The scary long range future of the movement, is laid out in Hubbard's own words. There's been thought that Miscavige is edging the movement away from Hubbard's draconian science fiction bizarre ideas, but that isn't in the cards. The policy called "Keeping Scientology Working" precludes Miscavige from warping official Scientology too far astray from Hubbard's own warped auto pilot path for them all.

On Aug 27, 10:46 am, [email protected] wrote:
> On Aug 26, 4:12 pm, "chuckbeatty77"
> wrote:

> > On Aug 26, 5:06 pm, Maureen Drueck wrote:
[Maureen quotes Hubbard's outrageously pretentious blather] "When Scientology founded Bio-physics, it did so because of the various discoveries which had accumulated concerning mental energy in its reaction against physical energy..."

[Chuck comment:] this is such offensive stuff, it's just smothering enough for the under-educated (I fell into that category) to buy this crap.

To me, it makes me irate MORE that society's goddamn intellectuals just don't rise up and smack this crap DOWN!

Hubbard's own words just show what to college educated people and professors is just outrageous fraud!

I just wish some intellectual would just lay waste to Hubbard's crap publicly, LOUDLY!

[Astrid777 wisely comments, 5 star response in my opinion:] "Scientology attracts no real thinkers as members, because it is such obvious crap to anyone who has read, or THINKS about science, psychology, religion, spirituality etc. It is a mixture of nonsense, common sense, and ideas derived from sources that go unaccredited by Hubbard, tied together in a hall of mirrors. I understand how ex- members, may spend the rest of their lives, trying to understand why and how they got involved so deeply. And wanting to help others avoid making that mistake. The only intelligent person who could go along with this enough to join up, is one who allows their mind to be bent by its methods and promises.

It thrives on the placebo effect. If you believe something is helping you, chances are it may help you, especially if it is structured, and keeps you busy, away from something that was not life-enhancing, like drugs, confusion, or boredom. Therefore, Scientology works, for some.

Although I am not an intellectual, I would imagine people such as writer Gore Vidal, or lesser known academics do not get involved in exposing Scientology for two reasons:

1. It would compromise their intellectual integrity to get deeply into such horse shit. It is like railing against people who believe the earth is flat. Even a half intelligent person can feel like they are going a little mad, just reading about Scientology, and refuting such lunacy point by point. You should be thankful for Dave Touretzky, who has done a good job, over the years, of writing and speaking about what is wrong with Scientology. And there are a few others.

2. The way Scientology goes after its critics is not worth it. They have a well funded legal team, and a small contingent of brainwashed minions willing to do anything on command, to a degree that the public or law enforcement wouldn't believe. I forget what it was exactly, but I believe that they even went after Touretzky, via CM's board, but ended up getting laughed out.

Scientology has only 100,000 members and does not have widespread influence on society, yet. It is mostly a danger to its own members.

A few months ago, I read a year or so of your posts Chuck. You are one of the few ex-Scientologists who has written candidly and convincingly about the reason Scientology was attractive to you, and the ONLY story I read where an ex-member cited "going exterior" as a reason. I think it is important for ex-Scientologists to write clearly about the religion in which they were raised, and their level of interest in science, other religions they experimented with or considered etc. Also important is mental state and the myriad of things that suckered you into Scientology. You covered most of that in your posts.

The end of Scientology would be hastened by Tom Cruise speaking up weekly or monthly, creating the kind of buzz he did with Lauer. Imagine if David Miscavige started lecturing to the public about Jesus- as-implant, or about a hundred other Scientology ideas that would set off the furor of segments of the public.

Yes, Scientology has caused some deaths, or driven some members with mental problems insane, made many members broke, became a huge waste of time or career block, but it is not a magnitude of death like war, or problems enacted by many governments.

In other words, the Chinese government doesn't ask you if you want to go to prison camp for protesting them. The RPF is voluntary.

Dawn (of Glosslip) does a good interview with Touretzky. In one part, she asks him to comment on the "high intelligence," generally, of Scientology members. He stammers at that point. Made me laugh out loud. He is just such an honest guy. Sure, there are some reasonably bright people in Scientology, but they are stupid for getting involved in such a cult. And there simply aren't any great thinkers in Scientology presently. Also, Hubbard was not a great thinker, merely a good huckster and cult creator. I would like more ex-members (obviously not the children who are born into it) to 'fess up to that in detail, how stupid they feel about getting into Scientology.

The lack of intelligence in the current Scientologists, in their arguments for Scientology, who post here, like Jonathan Barbera, are so obvious, I do not respond to these people. I've never read an intelligent post by a Scientologist. These people are mentally ill. I've never read anything that was coherent. Dianetics is such a load of crap, I still have a problem understanding how any intelligent person could believe it.

Scientologists lack a type of imagination. They can't imagine other truths besides Scientology. They don't understand the concept of "theory." They make huge leaps in logic, such as one I read recently where the Scientologist said that Scientology is plausible because there are billions of stars, millions of galaxies. Ergo, everything Hubbard wrote or said is true! Obviously! The volcanoes, DC-8's. Knitting needles poking at you in the womb. Gotta be true.

[Chuck response:]

You're so right. We are lucky David Touretzky even bothers. Had he not, I wouldn't have connected up to him, and connected up, and actually all the networking, that goes on, helps nudge the ex members out publicly.

It's an embarrassing life to have lived, those of us who wasted the decades of our youth creative years in Hubbard's UFO cult.

I wish a distillation, then, of the best of the books already written (Thank god, not really believing in god, but, for Dave Touretzky's "NOTs Scholars" and the "Secret Library" of books), of the books done, into spoon feedable form, for those needing a summary of the best of Hubbard's worst.

It's a messy area, those in, those out, those on the learning curve about it all, not fully out of the crap. thank god for the internet!

And thanks for people like you on ARS who've commented over the years!

Again, back to the point, if goddamn smart people who are respected, as intellectuals are supposedly due to their talent for understanding human affairs and life, if we don't have our culture's smartest most respected minds commenting publicly as opinion leaders (hate to use any phrase Hubbard ever used, since it tacitly pats his sorry head) to speak out against crap like Scientology.

I'm reading Roy Wallis' "The Road to Total Freedom" in bits, and he nails Hubbard's mental problems and authoritarian style from day one, the early 1950s when all Hubbard's supporters dropped out, one by one, due to Hubbard's erratic irrational behavior.

I guess Scientology hasn't really impacted too many humans adversely, but the 1984ism hucksterism that still sweeps some of the undereducated and mentally needy people into the cult, I think broader intellectual anti Scientology criticism IS called for!

If Christopher Hitchens were to take the side against Scientology and Alexander Cockburn who has written and was on TV for one tiny stretch of history favorable to Scientology in recent years, if Cockburn were to try to defend Scientology, and let them take up the "big" reasons for and against a UFO cult being allowed to prevail, and how a UFO cult should be discussed properly in society, so that the vulnerable DON'T get suckered into such things!

I mean this discussion has to be WIDER made, as I damn well would have appreciated having heard and learned that Scientology did NOT deliver the OT superpeople powers, convincingly.

In current hindsight, I believe had I known that even in India, there are secularists who poke holes in the Hindu mystical men's LACK of miracle powers, THAT knowledge, to me when I was a pre-Scientology dupe, when I was in college, INFO that even in India they were smacking down their mystical miracle men, showing that there were NO supernatural powers, no miracles, I needed to know that Baba Ram Dass and Alan Watts, and that whole eastern mysticism condoning climate of the late 1960s early 1970s, I needed to have that crap all knocked flat, and then I would NOT have been suckered into Hubbard's average Joe version of the eastern mysticism supposed superpeople powers that Scientology professed to give "standardly" and with full engineering accuracy.

I mean the world's offering crap mysticism, it still offers it. It all needs to be smacked down as false and fake.

Scientology was just to me, one of the choices, and a scientific (I knew it said it was, I sensed it was dicey, just by the pretentious name), and like you noted above, in my case, I was suckered from a more intellectual base, I was suckered already into buying that eastern mysticism did make at some points in their history, these superpeople.

And like someone in anon cogently said, what kind of person thinks they can get a leg up on their fellow man by doing the Faustian bargain getting mystical powers.

Well the eastern mysticism crap con dodges the Faustian bargain argument and Hubbard uses that dodge, saying ALL people can get these superpeople powers.

My god, what is needed is a well researched goddamn scholarly treatise, point by point, of the dodges Hubbard uses to sucker people along into the cult, and ALSO at the same time just lay waste in a simple, well written book, summarizing ALL of the dodge tactics ANY of these mystical cults use, where Scientology is just another of the long line of con mystical cult (UFO modernized) in human history. And that book ought to be High School recommended reading, and it has to be by a well respected GOOD writer.

That would keep the dumb youth like I was, OUT of Scientology, hopefully.

Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: "chuckbeatty77"
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 08:36:19 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Fri, Aug 29 2008 11:36 am
Subject: Why I as an ex Scientology cult member, like reading the "New York Review of Books"....

The New York Review of Books started as an intellectual magazine in the US in the 1960s.

I subscribed before I joined Scientology, in 1974-1975. I loved it then, I love it now.

It's the best writing for the amount of time I have to read good stuff, on current topics by our culture's top scholars and minds.

Over the decades the NYRB covered the fall of communism. I used to very much like reading about the totalitarian predicament. I'd read Alexander Solzinitzen and Natan Sharansky's books on their communist captivity in the prison system. I read polical books, I tracked the fall of communism and I read books like the expose book by Mao's personal doctor, unveiling life right around Mao.

So I've sort of prepped myself, for what I do today, cheerlead ex staffers to expose Scientology's totalitarian side.

Very parallel to the totalitarian cult of Scientology, staff life mainly, but also regular parishioners, is the history of totalitarian groups in the last century, and today there's North Korea, which is covered in an article this month in the New York Review of Books.

I quote now, from a relevant parallel predicament that I fall into this class of ex members which Scientology PR officials charge are biased.

I quote this for other ex members, so they know this is how our intellectuals take our predicament into consideration. This comment is about North Korea, but it's relevant to us ex Scientology staffers who are speaking up:

"...And even if you mange to eke out your barren report with a few moments of contact with "ordinary" North Koreans (who probably aren't ordinary if they're allowed to have contact with foreigners), fleeting interviews with the odd museum guide or flower-seller are unlikely to yield much more than cautious platitudes about the people's unquenchable love for the Dear Leader. As for defectors, the skeptics argue that they are inherently unreliable---members of a "self- selecting" group whose obvious disaffection from the regime automatically implies disqualifying bias.

"Though this seems logical enough on the face of things, it ignores the fact that cold war-era defectors from the Eastern Bloc, whose testimony was frequently discounted on similar grounds by Western scholars and journalistic experts, proved in retrospect to have provided a far more accurate cumulative picture that the "scientific" analyses of the professional intelligence analysts. Still, given all the constraints it is hard to blame academia and the media for being somewhat risk-averse when it comes to publishing accounts of life within the country that appear to diverge starkly from conventional wisdom."

New York Review of Books, "The Other North Korea" by Christian Caryl, August 14, 2008.

Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: "chuckbeatty77"
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 16:30:09 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Thurs, Aug 28 2008 7:30 pm
Subject: Re: No Evidence that Susceptibility to $cilontology is Genetic - Get a mental health referral while you still can!

[ AnoNotAmused wrote]
> available evidence points more to people who are weak minded and
> looking for a leader / someone to direct their feelings of realization
> of "personal specialness" and being "chosen" versus being on the
> outside.

[ AnoNotAmused wrote]

[chuck wrote:]
Hubbard's simple process, called "Be 3 feet behind your head." the supposed exteriorization process, and then follow-up process, from Creation of Human Ability "Grand Tour" where the exteriorized "thetan" is directed to go to various points in our solar system, THESE TWO SIMPLE HUBBARD PROCESSES hooked me.
If man IS a sprit, and capable of navigating causatively OUT of his skull, it solves the science on how the hell to traverse our goddamn massive and untransversable universe, the distances a supposed "soul" can travel, regaining just the unimaginable unsolvable physical problems of the physical universe, THAT attracted me.

leader person, Hubbard always slightly sickened me, I felt rather I was always waiting for outside world intellectual support for Hubbard, and was happy when I read William Burroughs was a Scientologist briefly.

no, I was a dupe for the real soul travel abilities, and presumed past religion/mystical groups DID deliver the soul travel goods. Simple as that for me.

if we are souls (we are decidedly NOT, I'm a hardcore materialist again), then we should be able to fly about, free of our bodies, like on Star Trek episodes and in science fiction movies.

Scientology appealed to me for that science fiction concept of the pure floating bodiless glowing orb of energy that could supposedly zip about anywhere in the universe instantly.

That's what Hubbard's "Be three feet back of your head" and Hubbard's Grand Tour process IMPLY.

Simple at that.

Immortal pure souls, who just need Scientology, or just need any other "Sam's Soul Travel" steps to get back to pure soul power, and THEN our venturing "back" out into the universe (Hubbard goes along with the fallen soul story, we're just burned down souls who think we are bodies, on prison planet earth) makes also sense.

no, the crap one gets, the theory of the science fiction, glowing floating all powerful "thetan" "Operating Thetan" able to venture out to Venus, and thus almost get run over by the Venusian train, I'd say more that thrilling idea of an immortal, unkillable powerful super duper thrill riding powerful pure soul, THAT's what hooked me.

Not Hubbard's drippy father beingness.

[ AnoNotAmused wrote]
>Most ex's I have spoken / corresponded with speak of a drive
> for personal awareness / multiple failed attempts to connect to
> something "bigger than they are." Fundamentally, the issue is about
> people seeking connectedness through something new, nuclear family-
> ish, and completely disconnected from the land, any duty to reality,
> complete disdain for present power structures and the way the real
> world operates, and a never-ending desire to "be a part of something
> bigger than themselves."

[chuck wrote:]
Agree to all of the above, BUT even bigger is the damn philosophical answers that "pure soulness" and soul travel and immortal pure soul high supposed abilities, allowing for omnipotent travel to anywhere in the universe, and allowing for all powerful telekinetic power, causing things in the universe without having to be a body or physical object to cause an effect in the physical universe.

I'd agree more to the Faustian bargain dream, for power, but even better, more like Star Trek, a floating invisible or physical bodiless orb of energy, that floats about the universe, THAT is what my false dreams were for getting, and assuming others in Scientology were to obtain, since Hubbard implies we are all this no matter if we get to that state now, or later. Hubbard claims we are inevitably pure souls even though we are buried in our considerations.

That purity of fantasy beingness, able to just reach out to the whole of the physical universe, go sightseeing to the limits of all time and space, that interested me, and brought me along.

[ AnoNotAmused wrote]
> All of these are characteristics of religious zealots, and I do not
> believe that's genetically specific to cultists; environmentally
> perhaps, but at its core $cientology's fundamental flaw is no
> connection to the people or the land. Their traditional "caretaker
> role," expressed in more ancient belief systems, is subverted into a
> LEADERSHIP OF THE BLIND (who only "cannot see" because Hubbard said
> so, and who actually neither want nor value Hubbard's bullshit). To
> $cilontologists, this is a flaw in the people who refuse
> enlightenment, not in themselves or their beliefs.

[chuck wrote:] Hubbard doles the specks of "tech" to get to the high OT goodies, that I'll grant that I gave him credibility, but only because I presumed, due to my other prior to Scientology readings, that these high spiritual, out of the body abilities, existed, and Hubbard was going to give me my share of these abilities, if I stuck with his lineup, versus all the other mystical groups' lineups of spiritual abilities, which I presumed the other groups would deliver on the "out of the body" travel just as neatly.

[ AnoNotAmused wrote]
> Hubbard's idiots were seeking something lost in a post-industrial
> revolution America that seemed consistent with our moving into the
> technological age in the context of a cold war.

[chuck wrote:]
some. I was more for the space travel, beyond the troubles of quarrelsome earth, stuck with such antiquated conflicting religions which were even more fantasy than the prospect of advanced space civilizations, which surely are out there, with the billions of galaxies and potential for advanced space civilizations, and here we are on earth, earth locked, completely ignorant of the rest of the universe, no actual knowledge of any other space civilizations, the Scientology "whole track" past of past civilizations, was an immediate prospect that "made sense." Fantasy sense, but hooked into the "pure soul" stuff, if we just get high enough spiritually, we fly all over the universe, regain our memories of the whole huge long past of space civilization history, the Xenu story would have fit nicely into this (I didn't get to the Xenu story while in the cult, I stalled at Clear, then went backwards, but I had over 120 folders and thousands of hours of Hubbard quack therapy where I created thousands of imaginary past lives space civilization experiences).

It's all just imagination, just like any science fiction writer stuff, to me now, of course. Not a stitch of it is real.

We'd need some visitations that are really real, to vindicate ANY of Hubbard's crap.

And still, as we speak, I have seen NO evidence of anyone going out of the body, it is all delusion, self created and otherwise created delusion, a brain malfunction, or just a brain variation causing the delusion of being outside of one's body.

Sticking with the mess, once in it, and hoping for it to be true, because it seemed to "make sense" about why we as puny humans are such out here in nowhere, no contact with all the god-zillions of stars and galaxies, is the physical evidence reason that kept me hooked to the Hubbard cosmological explanation of why we were such "outcasts", "rejects" on prison planet earth.

It's science fiction fantasy mixed with the galactic predicament of being here and in the true human ignorance of the rest of the damn universe, and with human speculations of WHAT the whole big galactic level predicament and state of affairs.

THAT is where my damn head was, and what banged around in my head, keeping me locked in the Hubbard fantasy creation while I was there. I thought galactic level all the time, about how Scientology fit in. It's a galactic level group megalomania.

Hubbard's movie that the late Isaac Hayes starred in, I've brought it up repeatedly, that movie, while I was in the cult, that movie just reveals that galactic level megalomania of Hubbard, and I was sucked right into that.

I trained staff on the administrative duties, but I also was very much interested in Hubbard's training of staff and public.

All Sea Org members, the lifetime staffers, were to study all of Hubbard's crap. It was a standing order to the Sea Org members that at some future date, they were to become highly trained both in Hubbard's administrative and his tech crap. The tech crap level 6, called the Saint Hill Special Briefing Course, has that Isaac Hayes film on it. That film tells the Class 6 tech Scientologists that they are to have in their heads Hubbard's tech, so that when they find themselves on other planets, someday, they will be the "source" of Scientology, and they will be IT! Scientology on that planet is up to them to get going.

Hubbard's shared megalomania is directly also connected to this frustrated condition of being earth-locked in a universe were we don't know the hell what is going on elsewhere.

Hubbard's pulp fiction science fiction adrenalin stuff, is right smack in the actual Scientology inspirational galactic level responsibilities for the highest level tech Scientologists, the Class 6s and above, see this Isaac Hayes film, and the Sea Org of course is responsible for all of planet earth being "handled" of the Xenu engram.

The fantasy story, is actually made "real" by the lack of information to smack members in the face and disprove this fantasy.

There's no proof to contest the Hubbard fantasy.

Christianity believes one's soul travels to heaven. That's lame to me.

Better that we are our souls, and we will someday fly wherever we want in the physical universe, like Hubbard's "Grand Tour" quack process does!

No oxygen bottles, no supplies needed!

[ AnoNotAmused wrote]
>Rather than, as
> virtually all other true religions (rather than cults), basing their
> fundamental belief system wholesale on something ancient and still
> connected to the larger group, Hubbard stole little bits that were
> fundamentally inconsistent and overlaid them with his bullshit sci-fi
> to tie it all together.. the bullshit sci-fi is what supposedly is the
> element that is supposed to create interconnectedness, but in fact
> it's based on the "glorification" of the individual rather than the
> group's recognition of it's interrelatedness to the people and the
> land...

[chuck wrote:]
Not at all correct.

My logic went straight from Creation of Human Ability, which I've posted numerous times on ARS, THAT is the simple path.

If we are souls we can fly free.

If Hubbard in his public domain books give processes to fly free, that implies it's real.

Flying the universe is NOTHING, if we are indeed pure souls trapped in our bodies!!!

Movies give the same story, it's not even just a Hubbard story, so dupe potential members, me, I just instantly grasped after reading about 3 Hubbard writings, what the end of the Hubbard rainbow was to be!

[ AnoNotAmused wrote]
> ALL the people.. as caretakers of the land.
> All religions have these essential elements, but not $cilontology.

[chuck wrote:]
Off the mark, and a side issue to the false spiritual aspects that attracted me to Scientology.

Of course any new group claiming to be new hasn't yet got land. I'd agree Hubbard himself, a nomadic ex military brat, checkered all over as a youth, himself touristing around freely all his life, pretty much, but he setup his ranch that he never was satisfied with, he was a fantasist, Russell Miller [English London Sunday Times journalist in his "Bare Faced Messiah" book on Hubbard's life] pegs him well enough.

[ AnoNotAmused wrote]
> Even Christians acknowledge sacredness and connectedness to Israel and
> ancient places, but no not $cilons... they swept in and colonized /
> occupied Clearwater then declared it "holy." It's all bullshit
> designed to isolate the individual from humanity and from that
> desperately needed feeling of connectedness. What it does instead is
> rip out all connections to humanity,

[chuck wrote:] yes, in the same sense that a person lives life after life, karma, that same deathly insensitivity that past/future lives immediately gives one to other people's lives/suffering. That's eastern past/ future lives insensitivity, NOT a Hubbard originated heartlessness. He bought that heartlessness just like us dupes who bought his crap.

[ AnoNotAmused wrote]
>which causes even more
> desperation..

[chuck wrote:]
My private private thoughts, I just heartlessly threw my life away, not even hoping to obtain the OT superpeople powers this life, because the whole logical coherence of pure soulness being real, even though it is NOT real, but because I believed in us being inevitably long range (future lives) all going to be inevitably obtaining the "OT" superpeople powers and returning to pure soul travel status, THAT is why I could daily continue to throw my life away inside the totalitarian communistic bureaucracies of the Scientology/Hubbard operation, until March 2003, and in the year of 2002, one key piece that fell apart, was my belief suddenly started shattering, I no longer believed in past lives/future lives, and I returned philosophically to materialism.

[ AnoNotAmused wrote]
>and substitute connections to only their very small
> group / set of ideals... and the "good" is only for those who control
> them... not caretakers, but warriors against the establishment and the
> Earth herself.

[chuck wrote:]
Possibly, but more simply, Scientologists buy the "thetan" (operating pure soul, minus a body) long term goal status, and that the Hubbard operation is producing such individuals, but of course that is fantasy and the operation is NOT producing a single pure soul able to do a single miraculous out of the body event that is provable, so the whole thing is a fraud con operation. It protects itself with the tradition of rhetoric other similar mystical fantasy groups have used in human history.

I found Scientology more acceptable than any of the traditional religions mainly because heaven and hell are ridiculously improbable. Living future lives and past lives, and being a pure soul, that someday will be able to tourist the universe, that was a better possibility to me.

[ AnoNotAmused wrote]
> $cientology is DESIGNED to ISOLATE not to create community.

[chuck wrote:]
That is the effect, of selling the freedom to roam the universe as a pure soul fantasy. That is the bargain, one traps oneself in the Scientology operation in exchange for becoming the free soul able to wander omnisciently the whole universe and all universes, eternally.

[ AnoNotAmused wrote]
> further in, the less human you become..

[chuck wrote:]
The already grooved in 1984ism that Hubbard conveniently followed, is the path to spiritual enlightenment, and pure soul status, and the bargain is communal deprivation (staff live this) in exchange for transforming humans into operating thetans.

[ AnoNotAmused wrote]
>it's really that simple. It's
> designed not to have mana.. not to have spirit... not to have anything
> of value external to itself and greater than itself... for it
> supposedly is EVERYTHING in MEST and out... fucking bullshit.

[chuck wrote:]
Creation of Human Ability book, search ARS, I've quoted the exact processes, many times,

of the travel to nearby planets, that is in store for Scientologists who rise up to that level of spiritual status.

galactic Soul tourism.

And then the Isaac Hayes movie, and a few other LRH references, place Scientologists on other planets in Hubbard's galactic megalomania game of salvaging the rest of the depressed civilizations on other planets out there just waiting for Scientologists to come colonize these places, one Scientologist at a time. LRH's own Science fiction, particularly Hubbard's several books with the character called "Old Doc Methuselah" a space traveling doctor, who went to far-flung planets and did some doctoring to fix up the planets, is a model for the Isaac Hayes training Scientology film, where the Hubbardites are charged with the responsibility to go in future lives, to other planets, and one by one, salvage those planets.

This is fantasy, this is pure mind numbing fantasy "high" stuff. I think one has to see how fantasy reading about fantastic scenarios fuels this mindset also!

How Science fiction all played into this, it's galactic escapism, megalomania, mixed with spiritual soul travel crap.

[ AnoNotAmused wrote]
> For those who don't already know... surprise.. I do this shit for a
> living.. not religion but using faith to heal in a modern day
> healthcare context, run your own math. It's relatively safe to say I
> am "expert" on these matters in multiple cultural and religious venues
> from modern to indigenous, in vivo (BEEN THERE, LIVED THERE, DID THAT
> all over the world FROM THE INSIDE BY INVITATION not because I went to
> steal like Hubbard). Hubbard was no expert, and the lacks and
> deficiencies in his writings are painfully obvious. There's nothing
> "holy" or even particularly useful when compared with what
> $cilontology BY DESIGN rips from you FOREVER... the possibility of
> recognizing your place in culture and relatedness to EVERYBODY and the
> world we all inhabit.

[chuck wrote:]
ooops! Not my cup of tea, all spiritual healing gigs are fraud, in my opinion. <

I'm a subscriber to Skeptic magazine, and I like Shermer, Sam Harris, et al.

give me the Center for Inquiry people any day! I like hopeful positive atheist scientists any day!

[ AnoNotAmused wrote]
> If you've "done" Hubbard any serious length of time, that's what you
> lose... and it's nearly impossible to get back. The options are
> simple.. .go into therapy and get deprogrammed and stop speaking like
> you think you know something important rather than just random
> bullshit some addict said was "important" and had the functionality to
> get published. Not everything in books is good, useful, or desirable..
> and Hubbard taken as anything BUT fiction... is one of those things..
> ALL OF IT.. the entire BODY of it... from business rules and tools to
> instructions for enslaving humanity.
> You folks wanted "spirit" and decided to look forward and not back...
Ösnip rant

[chuck wrote:]
I like Roy Wallis, whose "The Road to Total Freedom" is the best there is, in my opinion, and again, I hope someone of his caliber takes up the history of the Scientology cult, from the point Wallis left off, and much of the people writing on ARS have thrown in MOST of the ideas that need to be followed up and related to where things have gone since 1977 and Wallis' book.

I see all sorts of books that should be done, and public service videos to be done, to get the word out about Scientology to put it out of operation.

that work is beyond all of us ex dupes though. We can provide the details of how the cult is evolving.

We ex dupes need the minds who can do the updated videos and books to the rest of humankind's interest and benefit.

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