[From Marth Rathbun's blog] http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2010/04/29/failed-mission-review/#comments
Margaret // April 30, 2010 at 7:38 pm | Reply
For posterity’s sake (and for those who haven’t been able to listen to the audio) … here is a transcript of the call:
Transcript of phone call between Marty Rathbun and Michael Doven on Wednesday, April 28, 2010:
—-START OF TRANSCRIPT—-
[Sound of birds chirping, footsteps, car door opens/closes, clearing throat, rattling keys, etc.]
[phone picks up]
MARTY: Hi, what’s happening?
MICHAEL: Well, uh, love to chat. Uh, love to chat you up a little bit, and see if I can inject some sanity into this thing.
MARTY: Inject some what?
MARTY: Into what?
MICHAEL: This whole scene, Marty. This whole … this whole scene, you know?
MARTY: Yeah, well, you know I’m willing to talk to anybody on any subject, my Grade 0 is fully in. Uh, but I don’t think you know me well enough to know the incorrect way to approach me is to have 12 people … or 16 people in 4 cars descend on my place.
MICHAEL: I understand that. I mean you don’t know me well enough to know … I actually understand that.
MARTY: I know .. I know you know. But yet .. but yet you DO it. And that is the frightening thing. I mean there’s this gamemanship, this intimidation stuff, and you’re being a vehicle for it. And I know that you know that it’s not right.
MICHAEL: Yeah, yeah. Well that’s uh … that’s not my gig…you know …
MARTY: I know that Michael.
MICHAEL: … everyone has their agenda. And … and … there are certain … you know there are individuals with passionate feelings about .. you know … communicating with you in different ways. Right? And uh … and uh … you know, although there may be some agreement as to … uh … the desire for that to occur … and/or the uh … you know, the … what they want to communicate … uh … that’s … you know the HOW that takes place … that’s uh … I’m calling you now. I’m calling you now. And uh …
MARTY: Where’s everybody else?
MICHAEL: Well I don’t know everybody else … I’m at McDonalds with … uh … two friends. Uh, I don’t know if you know ‘em, Michael and Denise Duff …
MICHAEL: Michael and Denise Duff …
MARTY: Uh huh.
MICHAEL: … and Michael Roberts.
MARTY: Michael Roberts? And uh …
MARTY: Wow. Who were the other guys in the car with you?
MICHAEL: That’s who was in the car with me.
MARTY: The guy in the back with the blonde hair is Michael Duff?
MICHAEL: Uhhh … this morning … that is a dull morning … No, that’s not … no Michael Duff has black hair.
MARTY: Right, he was in the front seat with the camera.
MICHAEL: Uh yeah … uh yes, but the guy in the backseat’s name … I don’t frankly know.
MARTY: Is it an Int guy?
MICHAEL: Um, I believe … I don’t know.
MARTY: You got a guy in your car you don’t even know Michael.
MICHAEL: Yeah, well there was a car load of individuals, and I didn’t know … have everybody’s name.
MARTY: Ok. I just uh … this is very odd. I like to identify who it is who came to visit me.
MICHAEL: I know, I know that. I understand that. I … I uh … I would have chosen to … uh .. you know … I would have preferred to call … email … then show up. You know? And make an appointment. Something … that would have been more … uh … more uh … more my choice. I’m not going to make less of other people’s choices, but that that would have been what I would have chosen to do. And uh … it’s just a straighter uh … straighter approach … you know?
MARTY: Mmm huh.
MICHAEL: So … so … uh … so there you go. That’s … that’s that.
[Car door opens and closes; sounds of cars driving by.]
MICHAEL: Umm … I just wanted to talk about your … you know, over a number of months … it’s just like … Alright, what’s taking place here? HOW is it taking place? WHY is it taking place? WHAT is taking place? You know, how … how … how we get to this point, to where one who wants help and who wants to help people I know and care about … uh …
MARTY: [while walking] I’m helping people Michael now … this is the wrong button … I’m helping people now like I’ve never helped people before. In fact, I’m doing my job unobstructed like I’ve never been able to do my job before. So I don’t … that paradigm doesn’t really work for me.
MICHAEL: Yeah, but let me ask you a question. At one point, before, just earlier, somewhere earlier, was there a sense of KNOWING you were helping with certainty and KNOWING that it was working, and KNOWING that you were contributing to something good? Was there that point?
MARTY: You told Tiziano that I was “the who”. What did you mean by that?
MICHAEL: I told Tiziano that date coincident with the time that I spent with you, or directly after, were the lowest work years of my life.
MARTY: Mmm hmm.
MICHAEL: Now …
MARTY: And you attribute that to me?
MICHAEL: I don’t know where else to look, Marty.
MICHAEL: I can look at myself, I can take responsiblity for my shit, alright …
MARTY: Everything was … everything was hunky-dory until Dave got his talons into Tom [Cruise], and now Tom is a mini-me David Miscavige and that’s your problem.
MICHAEL: Well, I … I … don’t know …
MARTY: And I saw it, and saw it, and I witnessed it and I observed it, and I was completely in a position where I had no obligation or no fish-to-fry with anybody, and I observed it.
MICHAEL: Okay. And … and..and..and… uh [unintelligible] … that’s your viewpoint.
MARTY: I mean … it IS my viewpoint.
MICHAEL: Yeah, okay, you’re entitled to that. I … I got that. I … I got that. I uh I don’t work for him. I haven’t for a number of years. I haven’t seen him. I’m not currently … that’s not … I’m not here to represent him, you know? I just have my own … you know, whatever. I got that. But I got the sense back then … did .. you know, you said you didn’t, you weren’t … you had no agenda at the time. You know, and you were just … but, were you helping? Did you help …?
MARTY: To answer … to answer your question … an earlier time when I was helping …?
MARTY: I think when I got Tom’s case straightened out from all the quickie bullshit he got from Ray, Dave and Greg … got his OT IV straightened out, got his OT V done, got him through his divorce, got him his life together … got him to start helping people like he’d never helped before, like Jaime … that was help.
MICHAEL: Okay. Okay. So you had a sense of helping, alright? So at what point did you decide “Okay, now let’s just fucking destroy them all, and destroy everything that I’ve just worked for ….”
MARTY: What are you talking about?
MICHAEL: “… and anybody that’s had any gains.”
MARTY: Where’s this generality coming from? Where’s this generality coming from?
MICHAEL: Well, what do you mean … which generality?
MARTY: Destroy … who am I destroying? Who have I … attempted to destroy? Who have I … I have not attempted to destroy anybody.
MICHAEL: Well, listen …
MARTY: Who have I attempted to destroy? This is Dave’s case you’re running on me.
MICHAEL: No, no, no, no … (unintelligible).
MARTY: Oh this is. This, this, this is. You’re trying to put intentions into me that I have not demonstrated, I have not communicated. Nor have I demonstrated in my actions.
MICHAEL: Well okay, how about this? In terms of your actions, let me just … just ask you … in terms of the numbers of individuals around the planet who you know and have cared for at one point, who have had absolutely wonderful wins and gains, HOW are they being affected by your actions now?
MARTY: Who? Name somebody. Is there a problem with somebody?
[Sounds of interior airport noises in the background.]
MICHAEL: Any, any upstanding current member of Scientology …
MARTY: Yeah …?
MICHAEL: … are you helping them or harming them?
MARTY: I’m helping them. And …
MICHAEL: And HOW is that help?
MARTY: Because they are stalled and they are getting reverse Scientology applied to them. And they are becoming, and doing things against … they’re doing things against their nature, and they’re being requ … [to someone else next to Marty] … hey Peter, how you doin’ my man … you got my marine corps cap on bro …
PETER: [mumbling] Mmm …yeah …
MARTY: … you big time …
PETER: [mumbling] …mmm …mmm…
MARTY: …been a long time we talked …
PETER: [softly] … yeah right …
MARTY: …alright bro, I’ll catch ya. [To Michael] … Umm, reverse Scientology’s bein’ run on all y’all. And the fact …
MICHAEL: Okay … okay …
MARTY: And the fact that you’re having to go out and do things that go against your better judgement, is the proof of it. The fact that you admit you come out down here with 16 people to try to ambush Marty and try to intimidate him somehow … I mean I know you Michael, you know that, you know me better than that. You spent two years with me, man.
MICHAEL: Well … I uh … I’m talking to you now.
MARTY: I know, and I’m talking to you.
MICHAEL: [Softly] I know. [*deep breath*] Here’s the deal Marty. I … you now, the people I run into … and I got that you have attracted to you all the disaffecteds and those who have …
MARTY: That’s not true.
MICHAEL: … bad things not …
MARTY: That’s not true.
MARTY: That’s not true. The disaffecteds … you know the Anonymous people called me … and said I’m a much bigger threat to Miscav … to them than Miscavige will ever be. Because they see the same thing. They see this guy as taking the whole ship down with him, and they’re afraid of me. So the disaffecteds and people that want to attack Scientology, fear me more than they fear David Miscavige.
MICHAEL: Well …
MARTY: So …
MICHAEL: … well what does that mea …? … I don’t know what that means.
MARTY: What it means is that this conver … what it means is that this conversation you’re having with me should be being had with David Miscavige.
MICHAEL: Yeah, but …
MARTY: He’s your problem.
MICHAEL: But I see …
MARTY: He’s your problem.
MICHAEL: I got … I got that you … that that’s your viewpoint. I see … what I see is I’m winning … and doing well … and having wins … and expressing those wins … and sharing them … and pitching in … and joining orgs … and helping … that’s what I’m seeing.
MARTY: Have you read my blog?
MICHAEL: I’ve read parts of it, not everything. I’ve read parts of it.
MARTY: Well, you know, it’s like spike Lee says … judge me by the body of my work, don’t judge me on some individual thing, ok? Read the blog. It’s like we’re … it’s like two ships passing in the night right now. I wear my … I wear my Self in the wide open, and I bare my soul. It’s all there for the whole world to see. And for you to start telling me that I’m doing things to *attack* uh … multiple … even multiple individuals, let alone uh, you know … multitudes of people … it’s just inaccurate.
MICHAEL: Well how are you HELPING all of those of us, including yourself in earlier years … [inintelligible] … put some chance of hope there for people … how is that helping?
MARTY: I don’t know … I don’t know where to begin with you, because it’s all there. Scientology’s been hijacked. It’s been hijacked for the personal aggrandizement of a extremely egotistical person.
MICHAEL: So what are you gonna do, take it back? Or just give it away, or just destroy it? What’s the plan there? Wreck it because it was hijacked? Or make it better?
MARTY: Take it back? What you mean “take it back, destroy, hijack” … no … what I …
MICHAEL: I don’t know, what are you going to do with it?
MARTY: What I’m doing with it is applying it. Applying it as it was intended to be applied. And making it safe for others to do so. You guys gotta wake up and smell the coffee, man. The Church is dead, man.
MICHAEL: That’s not true for me and thousands of others, but if that’s true for that’s true for you, and I’m sorry to hear that.
MARTY: The Church is dead. He killed it. It’s dead.
MICHAEL: [*heavy breath*] That’s … that’s APATHY! That’s FUCKING APATHY! WHERE THE FUCK ARE YOU? YOU USED TO BE A FIGHTER, YOU USED TO FUCKING STAND UP TO MAKE THINGS *FUCKING* BETTER!
MARTY: I’m doing that right now, man.
MARTY: That’s why you need to … that’s why you need to do your homework … instead of just taking orders from DM … and find out who you’re talking to, because you’re talking to a reality point ….
MICHAEL: I haven’t talked to him or seen him in two fucking years!
MARTY: And you’re going to sit there with a straight face and tell me that you’re not following his orders right now … you tell me Tommy Davis uh … commandeered this whole plan and figured out to send 20 people down here?
MICHAEL: I’m telling you I volunteered to come and speak with you because that’s what I wanted.
MARTY: Because we need some straight R on this … I mean if we’re gonna have a talk, let’s talk R, let’s not talk bullshit.
MICHAEL: Okay, I’ll tell you straight, I volunteered to come because I wanted to talk to you.
MARTY: You wanted to *stop* me? Where’s that at, man?
MICHAEL: I wanted to get in comm. And I gotta tell you, you must know by now … that that probably isn’t too popular.
MARTY: Iknow, it’s completely unpopular.
MARTY: Utterly, I understand that.
MICHAEL: So that tells you where I stand, you know.
MARTY: Shheesh … Michael, you came down with 20 freakin people, please.
MICHAEL: Yeah. Well …
MARTY: I gotta pick somebody up, I’m gonna have to call you back, I’m sorry they’re coming in right now. And I’ve got one of your guys is video-recording me, in the uh .. in the … in the … you wanna tell these guys to back off, or do you wanna …
CHRIS SMITH: Who are you talking to?
MARTY: I’m talking to him.
MICHAEL: They’re not my guys.
CHRIS SMITH: No, I’m talking to you right now. No, I’m actually talking to you right now.
MARTY: I’ve got Chris Smith doing a confrontation with me …
CHRIS SMITH: I’m doing confrontation?
MARTY: And a guys got a video camera in my face …
CHRIS SMITH: Now this is Marty “Destroyer” Rathbun …
MARTY: …so you wanna talk?…
CHRIS SMITH: … being videotaped. Who is it you’re talking to Marty? Who could be more important than us?
MARTY: Here you go …
MICHAEL: Now we’re …
MARTY: (Back into the phone.) I gotta go. I’ll talk to you later.
—–END OF TRANSCRIPT—–
Chuck Beatty // May 1, 2010 at 3:39 pm | Reply
Thankyou Margaret, Thankyou Marty for being so open and sharing,
I hoped someone would transcribe this, thanks!
People should hear this man’s Michael’s tone of voice, at moments his emotional conflicts are evident. I sympathize with this man’s beliefs. To me he communicated a deep feeling of faith in Scientology. Probably he won’t be allowed future dialoguing though, with Marty. I hope he does, on his own though.
But I took the moments when he was defending his idea of Scientology to be the most important to think about.
Michael’s defending what he conceives of the church.
Marty says the church is dead. That’s way over this man Michael’s head though, and also, I personally (even though I am not a Scientologist), I think the official Scientology movement is far from dead, and even if any manner of worst case scenarios happen (like losing it’s religion status, going bankrupt), the official movement will STILL coalesce into some new future organized setup and carry on in some fashion, just like they did down in Australia when Scientology was banned down there.
I have respect for those left in the church like Michael do have a right to their beliefs that their church will go on.
I think dialoguing with them about the church’s future, should go on and on.
I personally am NOT a Scientologist nor can I ever be one again, due to NOT believing in thetans and a lot more I just will never be ever to reconcile and agree with major chunks of church policy by LRH (the OSA Network Orders, based on the Guardian’s Orders by LRH, are a main LRH tool that I find appalling policy for ANY religion/church).
I think LRH’s defensive church policy and Sea Org tough guy controlling atmosphere has to consciously be reformed internally by them.
Despite their beliefs, and I believe the official movement is the one that will come out on top, long range.
They have in their possession the full block of writings and strategies that LRH wrote for the whole shebang.
They are the ones entrusted to most closely attempt to do “What would Ron do?”
I myself think they overreact, but they overreact because LRH overreacted.
The world doesn’t like the bad stuff in Scientology, and whoever considers themselves a Scientologist, HAS to deal with what LRH wrote that is CAUSING the bad stuff that is hated by the outside world.
There are good people inside and out of the official movement.
People have to become truly pan determined, and dissect what of LRH’s order/policies and his FEARS, his overreactions, there is a major chunk of official Scientology policy (OSA policy for one, the OSA Network Orders are rife with overreaction intelligence tactics, for instance OSA Network Order 15, people should google “OSA Network Order 15″ and read about the ramifications that TODAY are a result of that LRH official adopted church policy).
The official church could be reformed.
I think the dialogue here on this site is priceless.
I urge people to dialogue MORE with the official movement, and inject sanity and common sense back into them!
Using ARC back on them totally jams their fixed ideas about the “SPs”.
“Marty the destroyer” is what (Chris Smith utters at the airport, dear old Chris the improv actor in the old improv group with Jim Meskimen and Tait Ruppert). And dear Michael Roberts, he’s about as mellow and a good natural type of negotiator diplomat who I likewise know is the kind of person who steps up, just like Billy Sheehan did, and will go right into the “fray” to deal with the controversies, on their own, since they feel they have a responsibility to take up those types of challenges against their religion.
Let them! I urge those celeb types to dialogue MORE! And on their own, without drilling, without going over their “message” with their church handlers.
Orchestrated church behavior is NOT ARC. OSA Network Order 15 is not ARC either.
When official Scientologists use ARC rather than OSA Network Order 15 as their basic policy, then that’ll be a step in the right direction.
I actually think the celeb types, like Michael Roberts, and Billy Sheehan, who on their own go out and try to talk for Scientology, good for them. Billy went out to talk to annonymous, and that was so cool. He didn’t look like he cleared it with OSA or anyone, and that’s what I think is the direction the whole official movement has to go. LRH’s policy that only PR trained types, or drilled reps go do the talking to “SPs” or to media, that is so wrong.
Policy that cuts ARC is wrong.
I think dialogue is the right thing.
They are on short leashes, but they are the cutting edge of what Scientology SHOULD be doing, which is letting its members talk freely, openly, but WITHOUT any kind of agenda to handle.
When Scientology members can talk as free as Marty and Mike and Steve Hall and all who are freely talking, then that’s improvement.
I rather think they have the advantage, because I think LRH, were he alive, he’d NOT just drop the church structure.
He’s gonna want the organization to stay intact.
LRH if he were alive would NOT just be saying, let’s pack this Scientology operation up, and let everyone just do what they want.
LRH if he were alive, would be wishing for the organization to have the basic purpose of what it says minimally in the OEC’s about central orgs, where central orgs are places people can go to be patched up if they are messed up by the field auditors.
There are so many decades of policies that LRH added on top of the old central orgs, and that over bureaucratic Roman legion-esque knee jerk bureaucracy topped off by the militant tough Sea Org member elite top ranks, this whole evolved Scientology staff setup is tough to “reform”, especially with decades of LRH’s writings for all the staff echelons.
I think the dialogue should continue, and I’d rather LET the Michael’s, and the Michael Roberts, and all the Scientologists who AREN’T seething overemotional wound up types, SHOULD be the ones calling Marty, and having discussions.
I think though, that the church is NOT dead.
It will go on, and the official church isn’t going to collapse.
LRH feared a collapse, and he was even wrong in thinking that, when he spread that fear, in the early 1980s.
He really was fearing losing his stash of money.
Had the church shattered, lost the case with the IRS, been forced to go into bankruptsy, so F-ing what! LRH was wrong, he himself unfortunately, like he admitted to David Mayo, was into the money and power TOO MUCH at that point, and back to Michael’s pleas to you Marty, Michael is just as much a real Scientologist as anyone.
Just because LRH feared the whole thing “being lost”, as LRH feared in the early 1980s, THAT was just NOT true.
The church doesn’t die in people’s hearts!!!
So what if the church goes bankrupt and is declared a for profit business!
The same thing independents think about SCientology is the same core good think the official thinks.
Scientology will go on despite LRH’s, despite DM’s, despite anyone’s beliefs that the church is dead.
I myself even as a Sea Org member, in 1982ish, felt somewhat dismayed that LRH was so fearful that the church was going to fall back then, due to the IRS case stuff.
I thought he must have lost faith in the church.
Who cares if the church loses its for profit status, if the spiritual tech is correct (I personally today think it isn’t, which is why I’m NOT a Scientologist), but back then I was a believer in the tech; but being high on faith in the long term rightness of Scientology (since Scientology is a 3rd dynamic of people, and the people then and now are generally good people, so inherently as a group of generally well intentioned people, I couldn’t agree with LRH who feared it was all going to fall apart); and thus I thought that even losing everything, meaning losing the whole thing.
I think this “fear” of losing Scientology, is something not necessarily even MORE of a problem in the minds of those inside Scientology.
Well, all I can think of, as a former Scientologist, is “What would LRH do?”
If the movement can be reformed by ex senior members dialoguing publicly about the movement, I think that is a good thing.
The day when the existing member can publicly confess their sins, like the ex members have now successfully done (to the world’s benefit I strongly believe), I’m hoping the Michael Roberts types can rise to that level publicly.
I’m glad these celeb types are talking.
Let’s see if they can talk without being drilled or orchestrated, and see if some existing Scientologists can speak all on their own.
I wish a few would publicly become unleashed, and dialogue here on this blog.
I think you, Marty, should invite them to dialogue here from time to time.
I’m sure, long range, ALL of this dialoguing will have a good effect.
Even though I’m NOT a Scientologist, I’m eternally hopeful in things getting better.
I’m for talking and getting official Scientology normalized however possible. It may be declining, but they have a lot of good people, who once they become unwrapped from the crap mindset, I think they’ll start figuring out what really is important. All this backfighting and elevating ex members into “destroyer” labels, that’s OSA Network Order 15 stuff, and it’s just longrange irreligious and wrong.
Thanks again Marty. You should touch bases with some of the new religion scholars sometime.
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