Chuck Beatty
Internet Posts, January 2008



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Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: "chuckbeatty77 @aol.com"
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 08:31:19 -0800 (PST)
Local: Sun, Jan 27 2008 11:31 am
Subject: Re: Mike Rinder

On Jan 26, 2:12�pm, hansonram...@yahoo.com wrote:

> Have I just missed explanations to his whereabouts or is there
> something weird going on with him. �Does anyone know why he left?

Seriously, being the lead spokesperson for Scientology, is a tough job. The punitive reactions of David Miscavige, over the years, against Mike Rinder, for Mike's various performances, is WHY Mike left. Mike did not want to undergo another round of humiliation by David Miscavige for failing to prevent the BBC show from airing and causing the negative press for Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard.

The trend/tradition of top leaders in Scientology calling it quits and leaving, is the precedent that is the unavoidable truth the top leaders face.

Imagine living at the top ranks of the movement, as a leader role, for over 3 decades, and imagine HOW MANY leaders defect.

They see their colleagues and long time trusted friends and spouses, LEAVE the top ranks, year after year.

When all of your friends leave, you see the inevitible writing on the wall.

There comes a time when one says to oneself that it would be less painful to live a normal life again, hopefully if one knows of "normal life" since some of the youngest members of the top ranks never had a normal life opportunity having joined the Sea Org when in their teens.

The fantasies Hubbard claimed about superior competence, sanity, spiritual horsepower, are all disproven when one witnesses the punitive demeaning behavior of David Miscavgie, the leader of the Scientology movement.

There are so many former top leaders, good people, all gone from the top ranks, over the past 25 yeas since Miscavige came to power, that when Mike looked around, depending on who was left for him to find friendship, etc, I think even though he left Cathy his wife and kids behind, he chose a life OUTSIDE of the demeaning punitive punishments that David Miscavige had in store had Mike remained.

Miscavige's personality is partly to fault, and I hold MORE to fault the limiting constraints of Hubbard's rules.

Mike left just after failing to stop the BBC show from airing and causing that whole round of negative press and negative image for Scientologya nd L. Ron Hubbard.

I think Mike left MOSTLY because of not wanting to be slapped around and demeaned by Miscavige yet another time!

There is a slow moving actual Scientology movement strategy, which if you step back, you will see.

Since the late 1990s, Scientology HAS cooled it on legal maddog suits compared to prior years.

In the 1998 6 hour interview with the St. Pete Times, Miscavige plainly states that Scientology intends to turn over a new leaf regarding the counter harrassment.

Scientology is continuing to do LESS crappy retaliation to former members.

This also makes it possible for a Mike Rinder to leave. He would know since he is leaving from his top dog position in the Office of Special Affairs.

Truly, Mike's story would be an immense story to do.

Former members are going on TV and radio and former members are NOT being harrassed, thank goodness!

There is a slow thawing of the application of Hubbard's most totalitarian anti enemies policies.

The people who speak out against Scientology who are most thoughtful, if you look back, are some of the leaders, some of the ex Scientology PR people, and some of the ex marketing area staffers, and some of the ethics officers of Scientology (BTs2Free (former Gold Base ethics officer, and a new person on XSO chat site who was former Ethics Officer for CMO Int), and NOW, the trend the last 3 years has been the whole younger, second generation of Scientologists who rose up to the top ranks to Int (Gold Base).

Jenna was out at the Happy Valley Ranch at the same time when I was on the Int RPF out there in the late 1990s, I was told. I can't place her face yet, but another person, Bruce Hines, emailed me saying Jenna was 13 or so when "we" (Int RPFers) were out at the Int Ranch.

Bitty, Jenna's mom, did come do the Int RPF with "us" (Int RPFers) in 1998 or 1999, and if Bitty is a role model for Jenna, I can understand why Jenna has enough gumption to speak out! I have a lot of respect for Bitty and Ronnie, Jenna's parents.

Anyways, Rinder is part of the Australian clan of Scientologists, a long long term trouper.

Once he is confident he can make a living and has unwound some, I expect with the increasing numbers of ALL generations of ex top Scientology leadership speaking up, that in time Mike Rinder will speak up to give his side of the story.

If Mike RInder did a book deal and told his story frankly, that would be a defining moment in Scientology's history.

Chuck Beatty
Ex-Sea Org (lifetime staffer, 1975-2003)
Flag Dec 1975-Jun 1983 (TTC, Sup, Word Clearer, D of T, etc.)
Int Base 1983-1984 (Routing Forms Pjt)
Snr HCO Int in the FB in LA 1984-87 Re-Training (Int and LA) 87-88
Int Training Org, LA 88 (Sec Checker Sup)
LRH Tech Research and Comps, CMO Int, (Sept 88-Feb 89)
Int RPF (Feb-Mar 89)
PAC RPF (Mar-May 89)
Int Training Org (May-Sept 89) (Admin Sup)
INCOMM Sep 89-Sept 90 (Routing Forms Pjt)
INCOMM Sept 90-May92 (Computer Room LA & Int)
ASI May 92-Dec95 (Computer Room, In-Training Esto)
Decks Int (Dec 95-Jun 96)
Int RPF (Jun 96-Nov 2000)
PAC RPF (Nov 2000-Mar2003)
Routed out March 29, 2003. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/XSO/
Chuckbeatty77 @aol.com
http://www.freewebs.com/chuckbeatty77/
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05205/542899.stm
http:[email protected]/
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=32959922&size=l
I live in Pittsburgh, anyone feel free to call
me anytime: 412-260-1170

Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: "chuckbeatty77 @aol.com"
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 09:52:31 -0800 (PST)
Local: Sun, Jan 27 2008 12:52 pm
Subject: Re: Miscavige's neice speaks up on disconnection and family self-silencing that is real to her....in response to Karin Pouw

On Jan 26, 11:25�pm, Out_Of_The_Dark wrote:

> On Jan 26, 10:59�pm, "chuckbeatty77 @aol.com"
> wrote:

> > Mary,

> > Yes, Jenna knows,and Jenna is now in contact with at least one
> > journalist. �Andrew's seen her letter and hopefully there will be a
> > news story Monday.

> > Jenna has made herself contactable and confirmed her letter.

> > Chuck <

> Thank you, Chuck. I figured as much but I felt it should be confirmed.
> Glads to hear she's getting her story around.
> It will inspire so many more to speak up and put pressure on the
> church to cease this evil disconnection policy, which I once
> participated in using.


> While I have your attention, I see that Lulu posted a reply stating
> that you'd already posted that Ron & Bitty helped Rinder get out, but
> I never saw or read of their involvement in his escape. If that is
> true and I jusrt missed the posts here, it might explain why it's so
> quiet about the Ronnie Miscavige family being out... to me this is
> amazingly wonderful news, confirming the suspicions of many!

> Thanks for all you are doing!

> Mary

Dear Mary,

I heard from several people, people I trust, who stated they called Bitty, and asked Bitty point blank about Rinder "being with Ronnie and Bitty" and these two persons stated their impression was that Rinder had either visited or stayed with Ronnie and Bitty at some point.

What I meant to convey in my recent post was that AFTER Mike was out, that at some point he visited or stayed with Ronnie and Bitty.

I have heard subsequently that Mike's first contact once he "blew" (escaped unauthorized) was to call his old friend/colleauge in Florida, Tom DeVocht. Tom was working as car salesman, and I've heard that Mike is doing the same.

Little Bear Victor, please go through his posts, he and blownforgood
have talked on the Mike Rinder and Tom DeVocht friendship
relationship.
http://tinyurl.com/2qvxwu Little Bear Vicotr's posts on Clambake
http://tinyurl.com/2k2pco blownforgood's posts on Clambake
http://tinyurl.com/24uq3d BTstoFree's posts on Clambake.

There is excellent unprecedented historical material within these 3 men's above posts on Clambake!

I recommend people periodically read these three men's Clambake and ESMB posts of these people!

Also, ex Sea Org members can go onto XSO chat site and ask questions of the former Dir of Inspections and Reports of CMO Int!

Things are OPENING UP. Jenna wishing her letter to get picked up and publicized is REAL.

The latest on Mike is he's working car sales with his former friend/ colleague Tom DeVocht.

I hope Mike finds his feet as a normal citizen again. It takes time to unwind from Scientology, especially the top ranks administrators who are entrusted with executing the FULL lineup of Hubbard's ideas/ rules.

I personally hope the younger generation like Jenna, also inspire their parents, like Mike's generation, to over time speak up on the record. (Realize Mike is a second generation Scientologist himself, so Jenna is 3rd generation "Sea Org" offspring essentially!)

Tom DeVocht is a well liked good friend and long term colleague of MOST of the ex top Scientology leaders. I don't know a single person who has anything bad to say about Tom, he's a good guy.

There are some truly good nice people who suffered through a LOT of bullshit in their decades of duty in the Sea Org.

That Mike chose Tom DeVocht as the first person to contact, upon leaving, is important.

I hope someday, some sociologists/psychologists who study the lives of members of these intense cult like groups like Scientology, take up this issue.

To me, it comes down to who you trust and respect.

Tom DeVocht, Bitty and Ronnie Miscavige, they are "good mentschs" in my book, and that Mike sought them out for comradeship since leaving, that is entirely understandable to me!

The relationships of the ex top leaders of the Scientology movement, upon their return to "normal life" is a ongoing sociological event that deserves some smart minds writing on it.

It's a strange life to live promoting Hubbard's grand galactic level goals, saving earth, overturning the whole "dwindling spiral" of the whole physical universe, fighting against the "psychs" who Hubbard believed are past lives enemies of ALL humanoids throughout the universe) the Scientology ex top leaders have to come to terms with the reality that is quite different from Hubbard's pulp science fiction claims.

The leaders of Scientology slowly come to terms with the fact that the Hubbard fantasy isn't reality. Jesse Prince brilliantly comments in Andrew Morton's book:

"...Jesse Prince sums up the views of many former high level devotees: 'After a time you either lose your mind or lose your faith. You can spend hours talking to your thumb, elbow, or the crack of your ass, but it is not going to make you a spiritual demigod. Once you realize that, you are gone.'" page 173, "Tom Cruise: An Unauthorized Biography" by Andrew Morton, St. Martin's Press, 2008)

I'm up to page 195, and this book contains tons of excellent new material that is now in the public domain, finally!

I'll relay ANY ex Scientologists to media, instantly. Media ARE interested in staying on top of the historical insider events of the Scientology movement.

Chuck Beatty
Ex-Sea Org (lifetime staffer, 1975-2003)
Flag Dec 1975-Jun 1983 (TTC, Sup, Word Clearer, D of T, etc.)
Int Base 1983-1984 (Routing Forms Pjt)
Snr HCO Int in the FB in LA 1984-87 Re-Training (Int and LA) 87-88
Int Training Org, LA 88 (Sec Checker Sup)
LRH Tech Research and Comps, CMO Int, (Sept 88-Feb 89)
Int RPF (Feb-Mar 89)
PAC RPF (Mar-May 89)
Int Training Org (May-Sept 89) (Admin Sup)
INCOMM Sep 89-Sept 90 (Routing Forms Pjt)
INCOMM Sept 90-May92 (Computer Room LA & Int)
ASI May 92-Dec95 (Computer Room, In-Training Esto)
Decks Int (Dec 95-Jun 96)
Int RPF (Jun 96-Nov 2000)
PAC RPF (Nov 2000-Mar2003)
Routed out March 29, 2003.
Join XSO and network to old Sea Org friends:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/XSO/
Chuckbeatty77 @aol.com
http://www.freewebs.com/chuckbeatty77/
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05205/542899.stm
http:[email protected]/
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=32959922&size=l
I live in Pittsburgh, anyone feel free to call
me anytime: 412-260-1170

Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: "chuckbeatty77 @aol.com"
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:37:18 -0800 (PST)
Local: Sun, Jan 27 2008 2:37 pm
Subject: Re: Mike Rinder

snip

> I'd be very interested to know what Rinder's attitude toward
> Scientology and the CoS is at this point. If he left because of
> Miscavige's abuse and humiliation, does that mean he thinks the
> problem is Miscavige and not the organization? I wonder how he feels
> about Hubbard and his "religion"? Does he think any of it is valid?
> And most important, how does he feel about the role he played? Does he
> recognize that his hands are dirty, too? I imagine you don't know most
> of the answers to these questions, Chuck (or couldn't say, if you
> did), so I am mostly just thinking out loud here.

> Beth

Hi Beth,

I think he respects the Hubbard rules NOT to speak up against Miscavige, in hopes his wife and kids can get out with the least amount of difficulty.

Mike is probably sufficiently under the Hubbard spell, NOT to act like Jeff Walker (who called the police to assist in Jeff's leaving Int base staff member status).

My feeling, but I have not spoken to Mike, is he is more sympathetic to Scientology/Hubbard's ideas than having a meltdown of faith in Hubbard/Scientology, and that he's mostly just burned by Miscavige's long years of abuse of the top ranks and overall direction of the movement.

I heard media contacted him within weeks when he left, last summer of 2007. He didn't want to talk

My opinion is that Mike has a backlog of reading and absorbing of outside the Hubbard system ideas to give him the word power to put his life in context. In otherwords, "go to college!"

It's all about ideas, in my opinion.

Ex members learn new ideas to replace their Hubbard ideas, or they keep their Hubbard ideas.

One inevitably thinks about the Hubbard ideas, and starts discarding the ones that one feels safe to start discarding. I don't know Mike's rate of progress on this score.

It's not a walk in the park, not if one was a top role model leader supporting the Scientology movement, and Mike was chief spokesperson for years.

There is just so much to say, that your simple question honestly deserves a half chapter length answer, which until someone writes it, I would simply say Mike is probably pro the obvious "good" things he believes in Hubbard and Scientology, and he is privately still following the Hubbard rules of NOT publicly condemning David Miscavige, out of loyalty to the Hubbard/Scientology movement and his decades of duty which in hindsight he is likely proud of most of his duty.

It's a tough thing for the ex senior members who sweated years of their life's accomplishments for Scientology, to just casually trash it all in hindsight.

One of the liabilities posters here fail to recognize, is that people who spent decades of their lives, have to have time to put their decades of accomplishments in new context. Those that crash out of the fantasy mental heights of Hubbard's ideas, good for them, but some have difficultly unsticking themselves from Hubbard's ideas.

Mike lived all the trappings of the public face PR man for a billion dollar new religious movement. That's his accomplishment, and I think he holds some pride in his accomplishments.

He's likely got tons of Hubbard justifications still ringing in his ears though, preventing him from simply trashing the whole operation.

I think at this juncture in public awareness of Scientology, there being so much good media exposure, that even if Mike does go public, and complains about whatever he chooses to complain about, that Scientology will NOT retaliate against him.

I think public awareness is sufficient that Scientology won't try to shut down anyone going public.

In the bigger media scheme of things, the BBC show tried to provoke a Scientology response, and there really wasn't the multi-million dollar legal counter harassment and PI stuff, thankfully.

It is in Scientology's interest to get over the maddog retaliation intelligence bullshit that has been the Guardian's Office and then the Office of Special Affairs legacy the last 40 years.

I think thus retaliation will NOT befall Tom DeVocht, nor Mike Rinder! Nor any of the ex Scientology leaders who stick up for Mike and harbor Mike and who speak up critically against the movement's shame charade, like brave ex WDC Member Larry Brennan is doing!

The world is too "up" on Scientology's bad side, and also David Miscavige has gone on record admitting to the dark side and Miscavige, in that 1998 St. Pete Times 6 hour interview, clearly stated Scientology is turning over a new leaf, and I believe they are.

Slowly.

I don't think ANY of the people speaking up, have gotten a shred of harassment, other than like in Bruce Hines' case, he gets "disconnected" from by his relatives who are still faithful observant official Scientologists.

Thus, again, I conclude the Scientology movement's LARGEST LONGTERM predicament is the Hubbard set of rules they are forced to abide by.

Official Scientology movement Scientologists (Hubbard's responsibility entirely for this) are stuck with Hubbard's shunning rules. Official Scientology, by continuing to apply the disconnection policies, place themselves in with other intolerant religious groups that practice shunning and worse religious retaliatory bigotry.

Mike probably will take a while replacing his Scientology/Hubbard ideas, before he feels comfortable to speak up.

With the freedom of dialogue on the internet, the variety of chat sites, the large numbers of ex top Scientologists dialoguing all their insider views, Mike has the opportunity to see the melting down of the Hubbard barriers that used to silence people, and hopefully Mike will join in the dialogue at some point and share his views.

I'd recommend him go to college, and minimally read the New York Times Sunday edition, and get a subscription and read some intelligent intellectual magazines, my favorite is the New York Review of Books, so Mike can see how deeply the smarter people in the world think about humankind's problems.

There is MUCH Hubbard dismissive mindset to shed to open up to the smarter views of the people who are living life OUTSIDE the Scientology bubble world.

I personally think Mike's stumbling blocks will again be Hubbard's dismissive ideas about the "experts" in the outside world. Mike was most steeped in the Hubbard dismissive opinions, being the leader of the Office of Special Affairs.

Scientology inevitably is Hubbard. And Hubbard from his own deluded fantasy idea of himself as a maverick (galactic/universal in scope) "civilization changer", Hubbard was unchecked in his promotion of himself to the Scientology movement followers as the most significant earth inhabitor in earth's short history!

Earth's just one planet and Hubbard's late 1940s pulp science fiction character named "Old Doc Methuseluh" who bounced from planet to planet doing good deeds and overturning planet level suppression, Hubbard has painted himself in this type of galactic level fantasy within his "serious" writings which are today the unchallengable and unchangeable Scientology movement rules and doctrines.

How much Rinder thinks about Hubbard's big flaws, I don't know at all.

Top Scientology leadership people find solace in Hubbard's views, since that's what you get when you get into Scientology. You are striving to find Hubbard's views that make sense to you. To justify staying, you solidify those Hubbard ideas that are "real to you."

It's all ideas, the shifting sands of ideas, forming dunes of "reality."

So the house of cards of ideas Hubbard holds, some of the more solid ideas, are Hubbard's dismissal of the outside worlds "experts" who are rightfully faulty and wrong.

The point is the Hubbard/Scientology "solution" to the world's problems, ex Scientologists someday have to face the facts that Hubbard's "solutions" (Hubbard's "serious" writings, he called them) are NOT working and the long range spiritual top of the line Scientologists are NOT the "demi-gods" like Jesse Prince brilliantly is quoted in Andrew Morton's book.

LRH is easily deposed in one's internal mental battle of ideas, so long as one reads outside world smarter ideas, which are plentiful to find if one looks.

MIKE RINDER NEW LIFE READING CHECKSHEET

1. New York Times Sunday edition for one year ___ ____ ____
2. New York Review of Books subscription for one year ___ ____ ___

No starrates, no clay demos, pass as many MUs as you want, just act like a free normal citizen and only use your pure interest and intention, FIND OUT how the smartest minds on planet earth view mankind's problems and what are the available solutions.

That's my recommendation for Mike Rinder and other ex leaders of the Scientology movement, to gain a foothold from which to look back on their decades of commitment.

And an aside, the Andrew Morton book, quoting so MANY top ex Sea Org people, and there are quite a few major ex members quoted anonymously, all RECENT defectors relatively speaking, is REALLY excellent.

I recommend people slug through the book! It's definitely worth it.

Chuck Beatty
Ex-Sea Org (lifetime staffer, 1975-2003)
Flag Dec 1975-Jun 1983 (TTC, Sup, Word Clearer, D of T, etc.)
Int Base 1983-1984 (Routing Forms Pjt)
Snr HCO Int in the FB in LA 1984-87 Re-Training (Int and LA) 87-88
Int Training Org, LA 88 (Sec Checker Sup)
LRH Tech Research and Comps, CMO Int, (Sept 88-Feb 89)
Int RPF (Feb-Mar 89)
PAC RPF (Mar-May 89)
Int Training Org (May-Sept 89) (Admin Sup)
INCOMM Sep 89-Sept 90 (Routing Forms Pjt)
INCOMM Sept 90-May92 (Computer Room LA & Int)
ASI May 92-Dec95 (Computer Room, In-Training Esto)
Decks Int (Dec 95-Jun 96)
Int RPF (Jun 96-Nov 2000)
PAC RPF (Nov 2000-Mar2003)
Routed out March 29, 2003.
Join XSO and network to old Sea Org friends:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/XSO/
Chuckbeatty77 @aol.com
http://www.freewebs.com/chuckbeatty77/
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05205/542899.stm
http:[email protected]/
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=32959922&size=l
I live in Pittsburgh, anyone feel free to call me anytime!

Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: "chuckbeatty77 @aol.com"
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 22:30:36 -0800 (PST)
Local: Sun, Feb 3 2008 1:30 am
Subject: Daniel Dennet discussing religion and science, and mentions Scientology and Christian Science.

http://tinyurl.com/2rgzpj

The point he mentions scientology is about 6 minutes or so into the clip.

The point I think is that Scientology and Christian Science gathered positive support due to science being in their religion's name.

The whole 2007 Beyond Belief conference talks, all of them, are all excellent. I loved them all. http://tinyurl.com/yv3eec This gives you all the Google video clips, some sessions of the Beyond Belief conference videos are 4 hours long video clips!

These are the really smart minds I wish I'd have had the chance to hear back when I was contemplating getting into Scientolgy, I'd certainly NOT made the mistake of joining Scientology if we had the internet and this type of material so easily available today on Google video!

These are the people I consider the really smart thinkers about consciousness and religion, and the big issues surrounding belief.

Chuck Beatty
ex Scientology staffer (1975-2003)







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